most disappointing Trek movie?
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
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If we weren't going with the TMP Uniforms in TMP, I'd have kept the TOS Uniforms except made from higher-quality material. And made the red uniforms more of a brown-ish red to fit the '70s better. For Captains and below. The Admiral's Uniform that Kirk has works perfectly as is. It was their best uniform in the film.
read something interesting other day thats always bugged me about TMP.. why was the movie poster of a colourful rainbow when there was literally no colours aside white beige and grey (and some blue plasma/lightening) in the actual film.. well its the TOS uniforms Red Gold and Blue! (and the green of Kirk wraparound tunic). I guess they wanted the poster to reflect TOS at least
similar to finding out not so long ago the Trek V 'seatbelt' teaser poster with the theatre chair reflective of a Starfleet uniform and the seatbelt is in the shape of the 'A' insignia
I get what you're saying. I like seeing characters change and grow, but I don't feel these changes were organic with what we've seen them to be previously. Kirk in particular becomes a real ass, and Spock just flat out turns his back on his friends.
I'm not the kind of person who needs everything spoon fed, and in general I like material which requires some thought and interpretation, but these changes just didn't track for me, and I think some kind of explanation might (and I stress might) have helped. Granted, Lost was particularly good at showing how a character could change in very unexpected ways, or simple be someone that ran contrary to what we thought they were, but in TMP I just don't see it. The behaviors we saw in TWOK were much more consistent with TOS.
I wasn't around when TMP was in theatres, from my perspective I thought the movie Enterprise represented the ages the crew had become. It was mature looking, I still think the Starship Class looked better than the movie version.
But that's the other thing, not every mystery is solved. We have gotten too used to having everything all wrapped up with a neat little bow and having all the answers given to us. There is something to be said for leaving things up to the imagination, leaving questions unanswered for the audience to discover their own answers. There is no real reason to revisit it, or try to explain anything more beyond what we saw, as it would not only contribute nothing, but weaken the mystery that we were still left with. As Sisko once said, we search not only for answers to our questions, but for new questions.
Indeed the previous movies had kept things rather simplistic as to only have the simple straight-forward answer (except for TMP, but they gave the old TOS style "this is what we learned today" closing moments). What did we learn from Voyage Home? "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy", Spock even says something similar when he surmises "there are other forms of intelligence on Earth. Only Human arrogance would assume the message MUST be meant for Man"
Paramount even insisted that the moment the probe first appeared with its song-like transmission, that there should be subtitles that say "Where are you?" and other such statements, just so the stupid movie audience would realize it was saying something. Leonard Nimoy indeed knew better. He knew that many people would rather think than just have everything drawn out in crayon. Even when I first saw it at seven years old, it still resonated with me, and it is what got me into Star Trek. I fear that if Wrath of Khan were my first Trek experience, I wouldn't have immediately taken to it like I did after TVH.
I don't need "bad guys" and space battles. I just need a good story with heart, and a relevant message.
In a way, this idea is part of the genesis of the question I asked earlier. There are too many reasons and "ways" that someone can like or not like a given entertainment, and without defining at least some of why one likes something it's really comparing apples and oranges. There's been a lot written about the similarities between sf and mystery, for instance, and a mystery fan is going to be a lot less inclined to like something if there's a mystery that's not solved. I, personally, couldn't care less.
Similarly, I frequently see reactions to "Did you like X?" which are in the form of "I loved X because it had new ship designs." Unlike the mystery connection, I am a big Treknical fan, but I'm not going to let that define whether or not I like a story. I can get that fix by reading tech manuals, blueprints, or going to CygnusX-1.
For me, a story is worth my attention if it has compelling characters behaving believably involved in a conflict. Other people take the attitude that "It's just a story," and that the characters and conflict are largely pointless as they're "unreal".
I think they’re all disappointing. TMP was an enormous slog of a setup film for new ship and interesting adventures. Instead we got a bummer mid-life crisis story in a ship ready for retirement that lead into a weak series of films mostly dealing with local politics instead of strange new worlds. TUC at least caps off the TOS mythology fairly ok. The TNG movies are all undeniably terrible.
With new young characters like Decker, ilia, saavik, David all prominent in publicity material I guess there was maybe a notion of Trek going 'next generation' a few years before it did..and that the main characters would be mentoring the new ones into taking over (like SW sequels).. instead they killed them all off! (or got them pregnant and left them on Vulcan
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I will modify that a bit.
TMP uniforms get a little change. Add collars, much like the TNG season 3 style. Make the uniform two-piece instead of one-piece (definitely not showing off Decker's twig and cherries), and DO NOT have sewn-in boots. Something that crosses between the TOS capris pants and the TNG-style spread at the bottom of the leg.
This would be the shipboard duty uniform, somewhat analogous to the duty fatigues we see most military personnel wearing, the more comfortable wear for long duty hours.
The Wrath of Khan uniforms would be ceremonial dress, used for special functions, parades, and black-tie events. Basically comparable to the Marine Corps Dress Blues.
Ground duty would have something similar to the Enlisted uniforms from Wrath of Khan. They look more like a sturdy work jumpsuit, and would definitely fit in that regard. Of course, add that big bulky field jacket for cold or otherwise inclimate weather.
Starbase duty or in ground installations, we would have something akin to the bomber jacket we see Kirk wearing in Seach for Spock, as more of a casual wear uniform
I like these ideas overall, and one of the reasons I like the TWOK forward uniforms is because they look very dressy. I think they serve well as a dress uniform. But, out of personal curiosity what would be the colors?
I think the Kirk and Spock stories in TMP both make perfect sense. Kirk is desperately trying to again prove that he belongs in the center seat, and Spock likely had all kinds of mental trauma from the five year mission.
You're not the only person I've heard say this. Obviously, I disagree
This one I see. The difference I still see, however, is the extent he goes to. Have we ever seen a time before this when he would do ANYTHING, screw over ANYONE, and be so arrogant about it in the process?
This one, I'm sure you'll agree, is your head-canon, as evidenced by the word "likely."
For both of these, though, I could perhaps geet behind these behaviors if they were properly set up. For example, if something like the Shirley Maiewski story "The Mind Sifter" had occurred before everything we see onscreen, and Kirk's mind was so screwed up by these events that he was bumped up to headquarters to get him out of a role that was both sensitive and required judgement calls in the field, I could see him feeling like he had something to prove, and doing anything to get his command back. With what we saw and heard onscreen, however, he comes off more as pouty and selfish, not the noble if flawed man we knew. I agree with your assessment that Spock "could" have had similar trauma, motivating him to tun his back on Star Fleet and on his friends...but I never saw it, or even heard about it. The five year mission ends, and as far as I can tell Spock said "screw this" and headed out into the desert.
The TMP-style shipboard uniform would be about the same colors though a bit richer. Not quite TOS rich, but more like The Cage, or proper military uniform colors. A proper khaki, a darker blue similar to the Navy workshirts, maybe a solid grey, meanwhile having the department color remain as the shoulder strap. So the main uniform color would either have to depend on the kind of duty, or be a department color in itself with the shoulder strap being a division within that department. Would need to experiment a bit.
The Monster Maroons of course would still be Maroon, same goes for the enlisted jumpsuits (which I had re-assigned to away team excursion gear). No real reason to show off multiple colors in those instances
That is my approach as well. Though I am a uniformphile (not sure what the Treknical term would be for that
) and that's why I love exploring uniform options.But, ultimately it will come down characters and their believability. If that fails then no amount of technical expertise is going to keep me in.
I grew up watching the Star Trek TOS movies and I recall that, after hitting the emotional and psychological high of TVH, TFF was undoubtedly a huge disappointment/letdown. TUC capped an amazing recovery for the film series and provided a very satisfying end to the TOS film series, however. INS was a bit of a letdown after FC but not quite as bad as TFF. NEM was an all-around disappointing ending to the Prime/TNG film series. :-/
I wasn't even disappointed by NEM as the whole Berman Trek universe was clearly burned out before then
Its hard to top Into Darkness for me. While Trek had already started to burn out after Insurrection and DS9's conclusion (thus making Nemesis a high profile capstone of the franchise's eventual irrelevance in the aughts), STID was coming off a popular and momentous film. While I had plenty of issues with 09, I did recognize it was the kind of exciting film Trek needed to get back into the zeitgeist and I found myself hoping there would be a deeper and more character driven film to follow.
Star Trek 12 was just a complete mess though; a film that lacked even occasional charm of the previous outing and with a Kirk I fundamentally disliked (despite the fact that Pine in some ways is giving a stronger performance). Not only did it turn out fairly lousy it made all the flaws that I tried to look past in the 09 movie all the more glaring because they went either unaddressed or made worse. It killed a lot of the enthusiasm I had for cinematic Trek and it in combination with the marketing had me avoiding Beyond until it was on video.
It may not be the worst ST film, but it did so much damage to the potential that was there.
Star Trek 12 was just a complete mess though; a film that lacked even occasional charm of the previous outing and with a Kirk I fundamentally disliked (despite the fact that Pine in some ways is giving a stronger performance). Not only did it turn out fairly lousy it made all the flaws that I tried to look past in the 09 movie all the more glaring because they went either unaddressed or made worse. It killed a lot of the enthusiasm I had for cinematic Trek and it in combination with the marketing had me avoiding Beyond until it was on video.
It may not be the worst ST film, but it did so much damage to the potential that was there.
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