Most disappointing ending to an episode

[TheGodBen]

Oh and just to add, I don't see how existing peacefully as an incorporeal God who can go anywhere in time and space is a "punishment." seems like a reward to me.

Because originally Sisko wasn't supposed to be able to return, he was to be trapped in the Celestial Temple. But Avery didn't like the original version of the scene as it seemed to be playing on a negative stereotype of African American men abandoning their families so he managed to get the scene reshot to suggest that not only could he return, but he promised that he would some day. Personally, I prefer the intention behind the original version.

Now if Jake Sisko or Kasidy Yates had been killed as a way of exacting punishment, that would've been dramatically interesting.

"The Sisko is of Bajor, but we're going to kill his family."

Now, if that had been the prophesy you may have a point...

I don't know about that. They were able to turn Dax into an Orb and then return her to the station in Emissary. And given all the other Orbs they've sent to Bajor over the centuries, they clearly have at least some control over physical matter.

Ah, but the Orbs (and Dax) were within the Celestial Temple and therefore they could manipulate them. Physical objects outside the Temple are outside their control otherwise they wouldn't have needed Sisko to go to the Fire Caves to stop Dukat, they could just have destroyed the Kosst Amojan to prevent the Pah-Wraiths being released.

Now cue somebody with an example of the Prophets interacting with physical matter outside the Celestial Temple to make me look stupid...

 

[Damask]

it's a deus ex machina because you had the protagonists in a situation where literally the only way out was rescue by the gods. Just don't create that situation in the first place.

If Odo saves someones life by shapeshifting is that a deus ex machina? He's seen as a god by two races?

For me this would have been a deus ex machina if the Prophets never showed these abilities before. The Prophets have been part of the story forever. They didnt just appear out of nowhere and they've already shown that they have these abilities.

If the Prophets were never shown. Only hinted at. If after six seasons in this episode they just popped up and made the fleet vanish then yeah I would have agreed with you.

Now cue somebody with an example of the Prophets interacting with physical matter outside the Celestial Temple to make me look stupid...

Fairly sure they were behind making Sisko's baseball stop in its tracks in Images in the Sand. Plus of course they can possess people and destroy lights for some reason!

 

[sonak]

it's a deus ex machina because you had the protagonists in a situation where literally the only way out was rescue by the gods. Just don't create that situation in the first place.

If Odo saves someones life by shapeshifting is that a deus ex machina? He's seen as a god by two races?

For me this would have been a deus ex machina if the Prophets never showed these abilities before. The Prophets have been part of the story forever. They didnt just appear out of nowhere and they've already shown that they have these abilities.

If the Prophets were never shown. Only hinted at. If after six seasons in this episode they just popped up and made the fleet vanish then yeah I would have agreed with you.

Now cue somebody with an example of the Prophets interacting with physical matter outside the Celestial Temple to make me look stupid...

Fairly sure they were behind making Sisko's baseball stop in its tracks in Images in the Sand. Plus of course they can possess people and destroy lights for some reason!

Odo's a main character on the show who has fairly clearly defined abilities and was playing a major part in the story arc and the Dominion War.

the prophets are not regular protagonists, weren't very much a part of the Dominion War, and don't have very well-defined abilities.

other than that your analogy works.

 

[sonak]

Oh and just to add, I don't see how existing peacefully as an incorporeal God who can go anywhere in time and space is a "punishment." seems like a reward to me.

Because originally Sisko wasn't supposed to be able to return, he was to be trapped in the Celestial Temple. But Avery didn't like the original version of the scene as it seemed to be playing on a negative stereotype of African American men abandoning their families so he managed to get the scene reshot to suggest that not only could he return, but he promised that he would some day. Personally, I prefer the intention behind the original version.

Now if Jake Sisko or Kasidy Yates had been killed as a way of exacting punishment, that would've been dramatically interesting.

"The Sisko is of Bajor, but we're going to kill his family."

Now, if that had been the prophesy you may have a point...

I don't know about that. They were able to turn Dax into an Orb and then return her to the station in Emissary. And given all the other Orbs they've sent to Bajor over the centuries, they clearly have at least some control over physical matter.

Ah, but the Orbs (and Dax) were within the Celestial Temple and therefore they could manipulate them. Physical objects outside the Temple are outside their control otherwise they wouldn't have needed Sisko to go to the Fire Caves to stop Dukat, they could just have destroyed the Kosst Amojan to prevent the Pah-Wraiths being released.

Now cue somebody with an example of the Prophets interacting with physical matter outside the Celestial Temple to make me look stupid...

well, since the "prophecy" was created by the show's writing staff they could've written it to be anything they wanted. Having Him lose someone close is much closer to a punishment than having him become one of the prophets.

 

[TheGodBen]

well, since the "prophecy" was created by the show's writing staff they could've written it to be anything they wanted.

They could have, but by the time of WYLB they already had a prophesy in place, distorting it to mean someone close to him would die at that point wouldn't work.

Having Him lose someone close is much closer to a punishment than having him become one of the prophets.

If Bill Gates kidnapped you, locked you in his home, told you that you could have every object available to you, advanced technologies not yet released to the public, but the downside is that you could never leave the mansion and could never see your loved ones again, and you could never fulfil the goals you had set for yourself in your life... would you really be happy?

I would, but I'm a self-absorbed wheeze-bag whose goal in life is to sit around all day in luxury with advanced technologies... but Ben Sisko isn't like me. His family, and his planned life on Bajor, were the most important things in the world to him, and now he is separated from them not only for a lifetime, but for all eternity. I cannot imagine him being truly happy to "live" like that.

 

[Damask]

Odo's a main character on the show who has fairly clearly defined abilities and was playing a major part in the story arc and the Dominion War.

the prophets are not regular protagonists, weren't very much a part of the Dominion War, and don't have very well-defined abilities.

other than that your analogy works.

My analogy was based on your one---gods had to help the Federation.

If you want to break it down further into who's a major character and what part they had to play in one arc of a show thats fine.

 

[Cyke101]

So how would you guys end SoA? Have Rom prevent the minefield from being destroyed? Have Sisko take on 1,000 Dominion ships with only the Defiant? Have the Dominion conquer the galaxy?

If the concern is to preserve the ending, then I think I would have tried to build up a series of events concerning the Prophets, especially since there were six episodes to do it. I understand there wasn't much time to do that in SoA, but there had to be more of a story there to reinforce the role of the Prophets for the ending.


However, in the past whenever the Prophets got involved, it was always to tell Sisko what to do -- in essence, they were the ones that dictated plot. At least in SoA, they did something themselves, becoming part of the plot. From that angle, if I had to rewrite the arc so that they're more prominent, I'd perhaps write them as something akin to the Guardians of the Universe from the Green Lantern comics. They're prominent and they're the cause of much debate with the main hero because of their authoritative passivity, but they only get involved with things look rather bleak.

 

[sonak]

to GodBen- Sisko WASN'T trapped in the "celestial temple" though-you're using evidence not onscreen to make your argument. It doesn't matter that Sisko's fate was eventually going to be different but was changed at Avery Brooks' request.



bottom line-Sisko was made an incorporeal god who could leave and return at different times and places whenever he wanted.


if someone said to you "hey you can become a god. you'll have to leave your family for a bit, but the good news is you'll have mastery over time and space so you can return to see them wherever and whenever you want," wouldn't you take that offer?


And why do you keep insisting that his fate in WYLB was due to his actions in SOA? I thought becoming a prophet was his REWARD for defeating the pah-wraiths and had nothing to do with SOA, but maybe I'm interpreting it all wrong.

 

[GabeHimself]

The Sound of Her Voice, because it makes the entire episode meaningless.

 

[TheGodBen]

to GodBen- Sisko WASN'T trapped in the "celestial temple" though-you're using evidence not onscreen to make your argument. It doesn't matter that Sisko's fate was eventually going to be different but was changed at Avery Brooks' request.

It depends on how you interpret that final scene between Ben and Kasidy. Sure, you can take what Sisko says at face value and believe that he will return some day, but that doesn't make sense with the warnings given to him by the Prophets in the final two seasons. My interpretation is that Sisko, in that scene, didn't quite understand what was happening to him and didn't accept yet that he couldn't go back to his old life, so he made a promise to Kasidy that he ultimately couldn't keep. You interpret it differently? Fair enough, there's nothing stopping you, but that's the way that I view that scene.

bottom line-Sisko was made an incorporeal god who could leave and return at different times and places whenever he wanted.

Then why didn't he return "yesterday"?

And why do you keep insisting that his fate in WYLB was due to his actions in SOA? I thought becoming a prophet was his REWARD for defeating the pah-wraiths and had nothing to do with SOA, but maybe I'm interpreting it all wrong.

Because if the Dominion fleet hadn't been lost then Damar wouldn't have killed Ziyal, Dukat wouldn't have gone mad, he wouldn't have become a Pah-Wraith cultist, he wouldn't have attempted to release them from the Fire Caves and Sisko wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to stop Dukat.

 

[sonak]

Wow, people on this board have a very elastic understanding of "responsibility."

First the poster who said the Prophets were partially responsible for the scenario in SOA just because they built a wormhole long ago, and now you hold Sisko and the Prophets partially responsible for Dukat releasing the pah-wraiths just because they wiped out the Dominion Fleet in this episode.


again I see no reason for your interpretation that Sisko was just deluding himself into thinking he could see Kasidy or Jake again when he really couldn't. If you want to start reading things into scenes that aren't there, go ahead but I don't see why a wormhole prophet couldn't leave and go wherever they wanted whenever they wanted. Why would the rest of the prophets want a pissed off, resentful Sisko-prophet who was being imprisoned against his will anyway?


they seemed happy with him in WYLB, and I think your interpretation makes them seem deliberately cruel.

 

[flemm]

First the poster who said the Prophets were partially responsible for the scenario in SOA just because they built a wormhole long ago, and now you hold Sisko and the Prophets partially responsible for Dukat releasing the pah-wraiths just because they wiped out the Dominion Fleet in this episode.

Actually, TheGodBen did not say the Prophets were responsible, he pointed out that the events are related (which they are).

Similarly, I said that the Prophets are "responsible for building the wormhole that allows the Dominion the threaten the alpha quadrant," which is absolutely true (it is their domain and they control it) and, crucially for the events of SoA, they have a choice to stop the Dominion reinforcements from arriving, or not.

Creating straw men does not lend any credence to your point of view

The Prophets' have a role to play in the events of SoA whether they intervene or not. I know it's troubling for your point of view on the subject that this is true, but it remains true nonetheless.

As for the final conversation between Sisko and Kassidy, both your views and those of TheGodBen are so wildly speculative that neither can contribute to our understanding of the actual episode. There's nothing to suggest that Sisko will be trapped forever, but also nothing to suggest that he can travel anywhere in time and space at will or that everything will be just awesome for him from now on. Obviously, there is, at the very least, some doubt as to when and how he will return.

He is with the Prophets, he promises to return, though he speaks of time (as the Prophets do) from a non-linear point of view and suggests it could be in the future or the past. There is sadness in his voice because he is saying goodbye, at least for now. That is all we know, really. It is ambiguous, as the words of the Prophets have always been to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

Oh and just to add, I don't see how existing peacefully as an incorporeal God who can go anywhere in time and space is a "punishment." seems like a reward to me.

The prophets said they wanted penance not punishment - they're actually very different things and partly why I don't have a problem with how SOA and WYLB play out.

And while Sisko tells Kassidy he can return tomorrow or yesterday or whatever it was, that's only from Kassidy's perspective. We really don't know what that means for Sisko in terms of 'time', etc. That Sisko hasn't return by the end of WYLB suggests a lot to me.

 

[TheGodBen]

Wow, people on this board have a very elastic understanding of "responsibility."

First the poster who said the Prophets were partially responsible for the scenario in SOA just because they built a wormhole long ago, and now you hold Sisko and the Prophets partially responsible for Dukat releasing the pah-wraiths just because they wiped out the Dominion Fleet in this episode.

I didn't say that the Prophets were responsible for Dukat's actions, only that their non-linear nature allowed them to see what would happen if they interfered and this is one of the reasons why they resisted Sisko's request.

again I see no reason for your interpretation that Sisko was just deluding himself into thinking he could see Kasidy or Jake again when he really couldn't. If you want to start reading things into scenes that aren't there, go ahead...

See, this is what I mean when I say that I view DS9 as a saga and not on the basis of individual episodes. If you watch WYLB as a standalone there's little reason to believe that Sisko wont return, but if you watch the series as a whole there's several overt hints that Sisko wont come back from the Celestial Temple. When they started the Final Chapter arc, it was intended to end with Sisko "dead", which is what Sarah was warning Ben about, so to say that there's no hint in the show that it was supposed to end that way is just plain wrong.

but I don't see why a wormhole prophet couldn't leave and go wherever they wanted whenever they wanted.

Yet they have never displayed that ability in the show. In fact, whenever a Prophet wanted to enter our corporeal existence in the past they could only do so by possessing the body of a living being.

Why would the rest of the prophets want a pissed off, resentful Sisko-prophet who was being imprisoned against his will anyway?

They don't, but it's not like they have a choice in the matter. Sisko's body is dead, it burned in the Fire Caves. And it's not like the Prophets wanted things to play out this way, they warned Sisko against this path twice and he defied their wisdom both times. The only person to "blame" for what happened in the finale is Sisko himself.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I've questioned the Wormhole alien's abilities at least outside the wormhole.

One example I can think of is "Story Teller" the one where a priest has a piece of broken Orb and is using it to create weird weather out of nowhere.

The other is that weird thing with Dukat in WYLB, when his cosmetic surgery disappears and he looks Cardassian again.

Whether Sisko can return in physical form (like Q) never thought of that-- maybe he is stuck there.

 

[flemm]

The prophets said they wanted penance not punishment - they're actually very different things and partly why I don't have a problem with how SOA and WYLB play out.

That's an interesting point that I had never really considered before. It's true that the concept of penance fits especially well with the events of the final arc and WYLB.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Erm... 'Let he who is without sin'. I was disappointed it didn't end soon enough

 

[sonak]

First the poster who said the Prophets were partially responsible for the scenario in SOA just because they built a wormhole long ago, and now you hold Sisko and the Prophets partially responsible for Dukat releasing the pah-wraiths just because they wiped out the Dominion Fleet in this episode.

Actually, TheGodBen did not say the Prophets were responsible, he pointed out that the events are related (which they are).

Similarly, I said that the Prophets are "responsible for building the wormhole that allows the Dominion the threaten the alpha quadrant," which is absolutely true (it is their domain and they control it) and, crucially for the events of SoA, they have a choice to stop the Dominion reinforcements from arriving, or not.

Creating straw men does not lend any credence to your point of view

The Prophets' have a role to play in the events of SoA whether they intervene or not. I know it's troubling for your point of view on the subject that this is true, but it remains true nonetheless.

As for the final conversation between Sisko and Kassidy, both your views and those of TheGodBen are so wildly speculative that neither can contribute to our understanding of the actual episode. There's nothing to suggest that Sisko will be trapped forever, but also nothing to suggest that he can travel anywhere in time and space at will or that everything will be just awesome for him from now on. Obviously, there is, at the very least, some doubt as to when and how he will return.

He is with the Prophets, he promises to return, though he speaks of time (as the Prophets do) from a non-linear point of view and suggests it could be in the future or the past. There is sadness in his voice because he is saying goodbye, at least for now. That is all we know, really. It is ambiguous, as the words of the Prophets have always been to a greater or lesser extent.

it's not "troubling to my point of view" to say the prophets have a role to play because they built a wormhole. It's just silly reasoning-it's saying the designer of a bridge "has a role" in a war in the future due to a potential army's use of that bridge hundreds of years later to conquer another country.

but I'll rephrase "responsibility" to "connected" instead to address your point, but it's such a tenuous "connection" that I don't see a relevance.

If he does let Kasidy know that he has the ability to see her again, how is he to accomplish that other than traveling through time and space to do so? And he says it could be tomorrow or yesterday(from the time frame of WYLB) when he does so. This seems to me to imply he has some kind of way of traveling through time and space unless he's just spouting vague metaphor-laden mysticism.

 

[flemm]

it's not "troubling to my point of view" to say the prophets have a role to play because they built a wormhole. It's just silly reasoning-it's saying the designer of a bridge "has a role" in a war in the future due to a potential army's use of that bridge hundreds of years later to conquer another country.

That is another poor analogy unless you include that the designer of the bridge also has the ability to prevent reinforcements from crossing it to dominate/enslave the population on the far side in the present time (not in the past at all, let alone hundreds of years in the past), and that the designer is in fact the only one who can do this.

The commander of the forces defending the beleaguered population on the far side of the bridge knows that his forces will be overwhelmed unless he can convince the bridge designer/controller to prevent the use of the bridge.

And so, the commander contacts that individual, explains the situation and convinces him to prevent the bridge from being used, though the bridge designer/controller asks him to perform a task in return. This is like making an alliance with a neighboring power.

There are actually some interesting similarities to the situation prior to ItPM, at which time the Romulans, who have a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, are allowing the Dominion to pass through their space to harass Federation forces. Basically Sisko, both as Captain and Emissary, has to convince neutral powers to join the war on the Federation's side, and in both cases he has to make a sort of sacrifice.

 

[sonak]

it's not "troubling to my point of view" to say the prophets have a role to play because they built a wormhole. It's just silly reasoning-it's saying the designer of a bridge "has a role" in a war in the future due to a potential army's use of that bridge hundreds of years later to conquer another country.

That is another poor analogy unless you include that the designer of the bridge also has the ability to prevent reinforcements from crossing it to dominate/enslave the population on the far side in the present time (not in the past at all, let alone hundreds of years in the past), and that the designer is in fact the only one who can do this.

The commander of the forces defending the beleaguered population on the far side of the bridge knows that his forces will be overwhelmed unless he can convince the bridge designer/controller to prevent the use of the bridge.

And so, the commander contacts that individual, explains the situation and convinces him to prevent the bridge from being used, though the bridge designer/controller asks him to perform a task in return. This is like making an alliance with a neighboring power.

There are actually some interesting similarities to the situation prior to ItPM, at which time the Romulans, who have a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, are allowing the Dominion to pass through their space to harass Federation forces. Basically Sisko, both as Captain and Emissary, has to convince neutral powers to join the war on the Federation's side, and in both cases he has to make a sort of sacrifice.

if you're saying the prophets have a role simply because they have control over what happens within the wormhole, that's different than saying they're involved because they built it in the first place and the Dominion is now making use of it. At any rate, this got sidetracked far from the point I was making.

Again, I'll say that even if from a story logic standpoint the intervention by the prophets makes sense, it's a bad dramatic resolution from a writing perspective. As I was saying with the Q analogy, Q was part of the overall TNG story, and we know he takes a special interest in the Enterprise D and Captain Picard.

With that knowledge, they could have used Q to resolve almost any crisis the crew faced during the show.(Leaving aside the issue of why Q would be motivated to do this repeatedly, I grant that he probably wouldn't be)

But it would've been bad writing.

The resolution of this story arc should've come from the protagonists of the show and their efforts. Bringing in the prophets for a last minute miracle was a cheat even if their ability to bring about this miracle and connection to Sisko was previously established.