Most disappointing ending to an episode

[Pemmer Harge]

Rom cutting a wire in time doesn't compare.

I don't know - if it was done well enough, I think it just might. Of course, I never saw that ending, so I don't know how it would have worked out.

 

[flemm]

Rom cutting a wire in time doesn't compare.

I don't know - if it was done well enough, I think it just might. Of course, I never saw that ending, so I don't know how it would have worked out.

We pretty much did see it. Kira and Rom fight their way to the console, and Rom shuts down the weapon systems. Cut to Dukat growling "Major Kira!" in frustration when the weapons don't go off, and then to the Defiant unloading its phase cannons on the defenseless station.

Not that there would have been any overt problem with such an ending, but it would have been simultaneously more predictable and less meaningful.

 

[sonak]

But as I made the analogy to Q, since he's a character that's part of that show's mythology and story, does that mean that it would've been OK for him to come to the rescue in any major crisis since his powers and character had been established before?

It works fine in whatever Q episode it is where the Borg are originally introduced. Q puts the Enterprise into the situation, so it makes sense that he resolve it, especially since it is a meaningful turn of events for one of the characters involved (Picard). Naturally, it wouldn't make sense for Q to keep showing up to help the Enterprise with the Borg, but within the context of that story, it makes dramatic sense.

SoA is similar, though it is taking place on a larger scale. The Prophets' intervention is an important part of Sisko's character arc, and because they are responsible for the Dominion's access to the alpha quadrant, it makes sense for them to restrict that access.

Obviously, the Prophets' influence should have its limits, but their influence is clearly defined and limited. The Federation still has to fight the war, they just don't have to fight it with unlimited reinforcements flooding into the alpha quadrant through the wormhole. If the Prophets magically brought the Romulans into the war or resolved the battle for the Chintoka system, or something of that nature, then you would have a stronger argument in my view.

The warp drive analogy is a poor one, because the Prophets are in fact currently responsible for reinforcements being able to enter the alpha quadrant (they are also technically responsible for the initial contact, but that is not the primary focus here, they are not being asked to undo what has previously been done, but to face up to what is currently transpiring). This is not something that happened in the distant past: it is happening now, and the Prophets have a choice to take responsibility, or not, just like any other character.

In "Q Who," Q literally CAUSED the situation by flinging the crew 7,000 light years away to teach them a lesson, so from a dramatic point of view, it worked that he resolved the crisis.


But you cannot reasonably claim that the Prophets CAUSED the Dominion War just because they created a wormhole, which was my point about the warp drive analogy. A wormhole is just a connecting point in space, the prophets were not trying to influence galactic politics, teach the UFP or Dominion a lesson, etc.

the two scenarios are in no way comparable.


It baffles me that some folks think having the protagonists be bailed out by "gods" is dramatically preferable to having them resolve the situation themselves. To me, that's just bad writing.

 

[flemm]

the two scenarios are in no way comparable.

I think the main difference is that Q Who is a single episode that requires less of the viewer as far as knowledge of the characters and on-going plot threads are concerned. If you have no objection to Q taking responsibility for his actions in that episode, then you should have no objection to the Prophets' involvement in SoA.

While it is true that the Prophets did not directly cause the Dominion War, they are not being asked to end the Dominion War. And they don't. They are responsible for the Dominion reinforcements having access to the alpha quadrant, and they restrict that access.

"The Prophets tell us: evil must be opposed." That is the perspective that spurs Kira to resist the Dominion occupation of Bajor, rather than passively sitting out the conflict. In SoA, Sisko simply demands that the same standard be applied to the Prophets themselves. Remember, the Prophets are constantly learning from Sisko, that is part of his role as Emissary. They exist outside of linear time, so essentially he has to teach them what they already know. In that sense, Sisko is the one teaching the Prophets a lesson in this episode, as he has in fact been doing since the series' pilot, Emissary.

To many Bajorans and more recently Sisko, the Prophets are gods, but to Starfleet and a lot of other characters they are just another type of alien. Communicating with all sorts of beings is part of the job description at Starfleet, seeking out new life and all that, so there is no problem there, especially since Sisko is basically just asking them to take care of their own house.

Think of it in Starfleet terms: there are some aliens that built this wormhole and can restrict access to it. They don't really understand why it is important until Sisko explains it to them. That is all that happens at the end of SoA, with the added point that they ask something of Sisko in return.

 

[TheGodBen]

It baffles me that some folks think having the protagonists be bailed out by "gods" is dramatically preferable to having them resolve the situation themselves. To me, that's just bad writing.

Fair enough. But to me it is one of the high-points of Sisko's character arc and an example of good writing that Behr and Beimler combined these two strands of the story into one. And as I've said, the Prophets didn't let Sisko off scot free, they warned that their interference would come at a price, one that I believe came in the final episode.

 

[Destructor]

I completely forgot about Sacrifice of Angels. I hate that episode's end. Lamest cop-out ever. Weak. Really, really weak. Stupid deux ex machina.

Disagree, disagree, disagree. Love this ep. Thought the ending was perfect.

 

[Destructor]

You know what other one really sucked? The one where O'Brien lives out a 20 year prison sentence in 20 minutes and doesn't know how to deal with the return to the real world so he's about to kill himself at the end of the episode until Bashir has a poorly written heart to heart with him. The ending was pretty bad, but even worse was that Chief O'Brien's suicide attempt - a major character moment, mind you - was NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN.

Yeah, that would have gone well:

BASHIR

Thank you so much for dinner, Keiko, that was lovely. So Miles, how goes your recovery from your horrific prison experience? Still sleeping on the floor?

MILES REACHES FOR PHASER

 

[Tulaberry whine]

I also agree about the deus ex machina cop-out on Sacrifice of the Angels. That Sisko never even paid the described penance for that, ever, in the series, just adds insult to injury.

"The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there."

How is what happened to Sisko in WYLB not exactly what the Prophets said would be his penance in SOA?

 

[TheGodBen]

"The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there."

How is what happened to Sisko in WYLB not exactly what the Prophets said would be his penance in SOA?

That's the way I view it, and that was the original intention. Sadly, Avery convinced the writers to change things and had Sisko promise to return some day, and while I understand his reasoning, from a dramatic standpoint it was all wrong. Personally, I choose to see his message to Kassidy as something he "rushed" to do without truly understanding that he could never return to a corporeal life, but if other people choose to believe that Sisko does return after the events in WYLB then that's their choice and there's nothing to contradict it. (And there's novels to back it up.)

 

[flemm]

Personally, I choose to see his message to Kassidy as something he "rushed" to do without truly understanding that he could never return to a corporeal life, but if other people choose to believe that Sisko does return after the events in WYLB then that's their choice and there's nothing to contradict it. (And there's novels to back it up.)

While I can see the reasons for your preference, I don't think there's really an issue with the revised ending where the sacrifice is concerned. "The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there," doesn't imply that once he leaves Bajor he will never return, but rather that "he will find no rest there," i.e. he will never be able to stay for long, his work as the Emissary will never be complete, etc. Some of what is said in the final arc seems to confirm this, with the Prophets asserting that the Sisko has many tasks left to fulfill. So I think it works either way.

Also, in Sisko's final appearance to Kassidy, he is beginning to talk like a Prophet, "it's not linear," "maybe in year, maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday," so there's plenty of ambiguity there.

One may say, well, being away from one's family is no big deal, but for Sisko it is a big sacrifice. Family has always been what's most important to him. Not being there for Kassidy, not seeing his child grow up, even if he came back eventually for a while, those are all big sacrifices for him.

Incidentally, in the novels, it is true that Sisko returned, but that doesn't doesn't mean that the issue of the sorrow and sacrifice foretold for Sisko has been resolved. On the contrary, there is still plenty of room for it to be dealt with, in fact the latest Sisko story does deal with it (not in a way that I was happy with, but anyway the issue has not been forgotten).

 

[Listener4]

What You Leave Behind. A good episode on the whole, but still disappointing. Re-using scenes was just unacceptable. I thought the first half was pretty good, but the second half just wasn't very satisfying.

 

[LeadHead]

So how would you guys end SoA? Have Rom prevent the minefield from being destroyed?

Nah, my thinking is that a better way to do that would have been to have the Defiant collapse the entrance to the wormhole. I'm sure that starfleet would have started working on a new method as soon as the Dominion sabotaged the last one. It could possibly use a new starfleet doomsday weapon that they have stored on the Defiant, with Siskos orders being to either get to the wormhole and prevent the minefield from being taken down, if that fails to use it to destroy the wormhole entrance or worse yet, blow the device in the center of the Dominion fleet, taking as many of the fleet with them as possible, hoping to give starfleet some sort of chance to survive.

The collapse of the wormhole would have been a dark shadow on Sisko as the Bajorans blame him for no longer having any access to the Celestial Temple. This also strains Bajors relationship with the Federation. The Reckoning would change to be about reopening the wormhole, with Starfleet setting up a new minefield for it, except Kai Winn does as she did in the original reckoning and prevents it from being finalized.

The wormhole does not reopen until the 7th season, pretty much the same as it was done, with Sisko releasing Sarah into the wormhole. Making the reopening of the wormhole much more symbolic, since it had really only been gone for an episode and a half really.

I haven't thought about how it would work with Tears of the Prophets, but I'm sure that could be worked out.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I like the ending for S.O.A.

I found it rather fascinating from a certain point.

If anything, to see if wormhole aliens would save them or even if they were capable of saving them.

But the penance thing -becoming immortal and timless-I don't get it.

If Sisko can return to anytime or moment at will, how is that a penance??

WYLB, the ending/endings just didn't work, at least IMO.

I like the Cardassian ending and the parts with Damar and the resistance, but once that's over, the story lost all its impact.

The two movies also might have seriously affected any future series set in the 24th century as far as the Romulans are concerned anyway.

 

[Damask]

I'll never understand why people thought Sacrifice of Angels had a deus ex machina ending.

In the first episode we saw the Prophets close the wormhole leaving Dukat's ship stranded. In Accession we saw the Prophets move a ship through time. The Prophets do nothing in SoA that we havent seen before.

 

[Deckerd]

What You Leave Behind. Because not only was it absolutely dismal, but it was ending the whole show. It's worse than when the Beatles did Free as a Bird.

I don't often agree with you but I'm in total agreement here. It was a woeful end to a fairly dismal final season (the only saving grace being an actual space battle).

 

[TheGodBen]

While I can see the reasons for your preference, I don't think there's really an issue with the revised ending where the sacrifice is concerned. "The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there," doesn't imply that once he leaves Bajor he will never return, but rather that "he will find no rest there," i.e. he will never be able to stay for long, his work as the Emissary will never be complete, etc. Some of what is said in the final arc seems to confirm this, with the Prophets asserting that the Sisko has many tasks left to fulfill. So I think it works either way.

The thing is that I believe DS9 as a saga ended with WYLB and that any penance which was to be enacted on Sisko had to happen then and not after that episode. Sure, Sisko could return but be so busy that he never gets to live his life on Bajor as he wanted, but that's not part of the story as I see it. For people that read the relaunch novels or still hold out hope for a movie or miniseries, they can put off Sisko's penance for another day, but I can't so I see Sisko's "death" as his penance.

What's more, I don't see how Sisko can come back. The Prophets haven't displayed the ability to interact with matter outside the Celestial Temple, they only appear to be capable of body possession and transmitting messages to a person's mind. When Sisko was falling in the Fire Caves, only his mind and his "soul" were transported to the Celestial Temple due to his Prophet-like nature, while his body continued to fall into the flames. Sisko cannot return now as he has no physical form in which to return, the best he could do is possess the body of someone else (and I would highly recommend Nog).

At least, that's how I see it, I know that most other people disagree.

Nah, my thinking is that a better way to do that would have been to have the Defiant collapse the entrance to the wormhole.

The consequences you mention are interesting and would help to explain the rise of the Pah-Wraith cult, but I don't find the idea of collapsing the wormhole to be interesting as it had been tried twice already (okay, once in reality and once in a simulation) so that seems a little bit predictable.

If you don't like the Prophet scene then I'm unlikely to convince you that it's a satisfactory ending to the episode, but for me it is. I love the transition from the sceptical Sisko of Emissary to the Sisko that stands before the Prophets as gods and begs them for a miracle. I like the fact that the Prophets are forced to take a stand to protect Bajor, they're not allowed to just sit on the sidelines any longer.

 

[sonak]

I'll never understand why people thought Sacrifice of Angels had a deus ex machina ending.

In the first episode we saw the Prophets close the wormhole leaving Dukat's ship stranded. In Accession we saw the Prophets move a ship through time. The Prophets do nothing in SoA that we havent seen before.

There's a confusion here between what makes logical sense from the fictional universe perspective and what works for good storytelling.


SOA was the end of a major story arc and phase of the war. It's bad dramatically to put your protagonists in a scenario where they get bailed out by the gods. Yes in this case those gods have been shown to be players before, but as I was saying with the Q analogy, that's irrelevant.



it's a deus ex machina because you had the protagonists in a situation where literally the only way out was rescue by the gods. Just don't create that situation in the first place.

 

[sonak]

Oh and just to add, I don't see how existing peacefully as an incorporeal God who can go anywhere in time and space is a "punishment." seems like a reward to me.


Now if Jake Sisko or Kasidy Yates had been killed as a way of exacting punishment, that would've been dramatically interesting.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The Prophets haven't displayed the ability to interact with matter outside the Celestial Temple, they only appear to be capable of body possession and transmitting messages to a person's mind.

I don't know about that. They were able to turn Dax into an Orb and then return her to the station in Emissary. And given all the other Orbs they've sent to Bajor over the centuries, they clearly have at least some control over physical matter.

Personally, I like to think that Sisko isn't dead, as that's how I interpreted it when I first saw the episode. However, I can definitely see where you're coming from.

One of these days I really need to read the relaunch novels so I can have my beliefs confirmed.

 

[carlmarx]

Nah, my thinking is that a better way to do that would have been to have the Defiant collapse the entrance to the wormhole.

But in "By Inferno's Light", they said that the Bashir-Changeling's sabotage actually strengthened the wormhole to the point where they couldn't collapse the entrance, even if they wanted to.