Monotheism...

[Swedish Borg]

I am both a father to my children and a son to my father. But I am not my own father or son and that appears meaningless. It can only be resolved spiritually in the sense that if you know you can draw close to the Father and become connected and one with Him, having His will and His mind then you and the Father can become One.

In John, Jesus said "I and the Father are one". The Father comes and re-casts the symbolic relationship from the human perspective as human. Every Christian understands this. It is not meant to be dismissive of your concerns however.
Oh, they have deep meaning to those who have had literal spiritual experiences of the sort I mentioned.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One and the same. They have different functions, but is not too much different than showing my child I am father to him, son to my dad, and teacher. (There are a lot of differences between the two analogies for sure! but not considering utility and understanding here).

You know I read the entire text, not more than once though, but I remember the most remarkable passages.

There is one that is particularly intriguing and closely relates to our little problem.

It's when Jesus cries out: "God, God, why have you forsaken me?" or something to that effect.

Anyway, this in and of itself strongly implies that Jesus and God are two distinct... people, entities, whatever...

Anyway, the strangest part is not that though. It's that the people present mistake Jesus statement as Jesus asking to talk to someone called "Eli" (because he was speaking in Aramaic and in that language his statement began with "Eli") but what happened is that Jesus died soon after so he didn't have time to set the record straight, so to speak.

So my question is this: How come the narrator knew what Jesus was talking about while the people THERE had no idea what it meant?

You know there is only one type of story where the narrator is more knowledgeable than the people involved, it's fiction! Only in fiction can a narrator know things that are beyond reach to anyone within the story.

I haven't since heard any argument contrary to that deduction.

Impregnation does not mean polytheism. (?)

Well, it definitely hints at polytheism. An almighty God has no need for that kind of thing, nor does he/she?/they? have a need for little helpers. I mean why would an all-powerful, ubiquitous (and a third thing that eludes me right now) need anything else than themselves? (I think "them" is preferable to 'it', some people could take umbrage at that appellation.)

Impregnation does sound like a holdover from the time when religions were openly and pridefully polytheistic. Usually, that kind of impregnation of a mortal woman by a god would result in a demi-god.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Can I talk about a religion without someone thinking that I want to destroy it and someone else saying (or implying ) that I wish to join it?

What if I started a discussion about dishwashers would you conclude that I either want to break one or be one? So why do you make that assumption about monotheism?

what is monotheism, what does it entail?

I was simply stating that Monotheism isn't just Christianity or Islam or Judaism. I was brought up a protestant Christian and although I realised in my teens that Christianity was probably all nonsense it is only recently that I took any interest in researching its shaky foundations. It is very much a house built upon sand. The doctrine of the holy Trinity is an example of stuff seemingly glued on after Christianity became the main religion of the Roman Empire due to Constantine. It's the product of 4th century navel gazing at the edge of the Sea of Marmara when early bishops were trying to make sense of all the competing ideas about what constituted their religion. They first came up with unifying the father and son and added the spirit a few years later. There's nothing in the New Testament to support such a vision.

I suppose if one's faith is strong, it can survive such examination but mine was never strong. I haven't felt tempted to go for anything else. The universe is vast and indifferent to human suffering. It did not require a sky fairy to set it in motion. It was the product of a vacuum fluctuation and there are probably an infinite number of similar and very different universes in a multiverse. Everything that can possibly happen does happen an infinite number of times. Now whether a multiverse or a universe can be a conscious entity, I don't know. I'm too small and insignificant to be able to grok that.

 

[Swedish Borg]

I was simply stating that Monotheism isn't just Christianity or Islam or Judaism. I was brought up a protestant Christian and although I realised in my teens that Christianity was probably all nonsense it is only recently that I took any interest in researching its shaky foundations. It is very much a house built upon sand. The doctrine of the holy Trinity is an example of stuff seemingly glued on after Christianity became the main religion of the Roman Empire due to Constantine. It's the product of 4th century navel gazing at the edge of the Sea of Marmara when early bishops were trying to make sense of all the competing ideas about what constituted their religion. They first came up with unifying the father and son and added the spirit a few years later. There's nothing in the New Testament to support such a vision.

I suppose if one's faith is strong, it can survive such examination but mine was never strong. I haven't felt tempted to go for anything else. The universe is vast and indifferent to human suffering. It did not require a sky fairy to set it in motion. It was the product of a vacuum fluctuation and there are probably an infinite number of similar and very different universes in a multiverse. Everything that can possibly happen does happen an infinite number of times. Now whether a multiverse or a universe can be a conscious entity, I don't know. I'm too small and insignificant to be able to grok that.

I must say I recognize my own opinions in much of what you've said here.

For one thing, the universe is much bigger and more complex than any religion ever anticipated.

To paraphrase Shakespeare: "There are more things in the universe or multiverse than are dreamt in your religions, much more!!!"

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I find conventional religion far too limited in its outlook given what science has revealed to us on both the largest and smallest scales.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

It's when Jesus cries out: "God, God, why have you forsaken me?" or something to that effect.

"Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachtani"

Anyway, this in and of itself strongly implies that Jesus and God are two distinct... people, entities, whatever...

Asked and answered. Jesus was the example for how to walk with the Father and exemplified it from the human perspective before it would be He Himself who would be the one all people who walk by faith can experience.

If you don't get that, I understand. I never could either until my own experience.

It's that the people present mistake Jesus statement as Jesus asking to talk to someone called "Eli"

Nah, they knew "Eloi" means Elohim or God.

So my question is this: How come the narrator knew what Jesus was talking about while the people THERE had no idea what it meant?

Because the narrator knew he was quoting Psalm 22 in the agony of death. Because even if he did not know then, Jesus could have told him so after rising.

Nothing too gripping here particularly on the weird claim that "Christians are secret polytheists".

You know there is only one type of story where the narrator is more knowledgeable than the people involved,

Which "one"? True crime? Biography? Autobiography? Historical non-fiction?

it's fiction!

Oh.

...

I am with the others here who think you are being disingenuous now. Particularly on your whole impregnation thing which has zero to do with "unwitting polytheism" and is just a dig at "why does an all-powerful God need to do X?"

Captivating as that might be for some; that is not for me.

Yes if Christianity WAS polytheistic, one MIGHT suppose that God blessing Mary with immaculate conception might yield a demi-god like Herakles.

But that is not what the text claims.

Because the faith is not polytheistic.

The Lord is God; the Lord is one. He is the Word of the Father; both with God as an example for how we can be with God and God Himself simultaneously.

He has created, He allowed mankind to choose its fallen state and He has redeemed.

I get that it is complex, and not all will believe nor even think it's comprehensible. But to claim to comprehend it ENOUGH to argue that Christians are somehow "unknowing polytheists" ......

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

I find conventional religion far too limited in its outlook given what science has revealed to us on both the largest and smallest scales.

Churches are full of ignorant leaders who worship tradition and the "letter of the law" and have no willingness to see the entire universe itself as part of God's general revelation for us to learn and grow from.

 

[Xhiandra]

Monotheism a fuzzy notion, indeed, but there is a reason for that.

We cannot cleanly cleave polytheism from monotheism, it's more continuous than that, there's henotheism in the middle, which is partly both: in henotheism, there technically are several deities, but one receives most or all of the attention of the followers.

Polytheism can evolve into henotheism (memetic evolution works much like genetic evolution) for practical reasons, like the cost of worshipping many gods.
In turn, henotheism can evolve into monotheism as the non-worshipped gods are progressively more and more ignored until they fade out or are downgraded to a lesser status, like messengers of the single god.

Now, I can't tell you with certainty that's with happened with abrahamic religions evolving from an initial polytheist religion, but we can see the signs of henotheism in, as you've mentionned: the trinity, angels, etc.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

we can see the signs of henotheism in, as you've mentionned: the trinity, angels, etc.

How so? How do we see "signs of henotheism in the Trinity and angels etc"?

Remember, henotheism at the roots of Judeo-Christianity is more a form of monotheism in that the ancient Israelites believed in the existence of other gods - sure - but they believed Yahweh was more powerful and the others were inferior,

so it cannot count as "polytheism" even a little bit since the belief in the existence of other gods did not necessarily result in worship of multiple gods.

According to the Bible, even the devils are "henotheistic"

James 2:19:

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. But even the demons believe—and tremble!"

 

[1001001]

God is the sun. Jesus is the light. The Holy Spirit is the warmth.

3 things, and yet one thing. Separate but the same.

At least, that's how the priests at school taught me.

 

[Chaos Descending]

God is the sun. Jesus is the light. The Holy Spirit is the warmth.

3 things, and yet one thing. Separate but the same.

At least, that's how the priests at school taught me.

That's Arianism.

As one of my teachers once said, it's difficult to talk about the Trinity for more than a minute without slipping into heresy.

It's impossible to accurately explain the Trinity using analogy, because the Trinity is a unique thing in all of eternity. There's nothing anywhere to compare the nature of our Triune God, and to do so using analogy always ends up wrong.

 

[Mudd]

Can all this confusion still be called monotheism? Most Christians think so, but is that enough?

Of course it's enough. They're the only ones who have to believe it, after all.

 

[1001001]

That's Arianism.

As one of my teachers once said, it's difficult to talk about the Trinity for more than a minute without slipping into heresy.

It's impossible to accurately explain the Trinity using analogy, because the Trinity is a unique thing in all of eternity. There's nothing anywhere to compare the nature of our Triune God, and to do so using analogy always ends up wrong.

If it helps, I think it’s all B.S. anyway.

 

[Oddish]

If it helps, I think it’s all B.S. anyway.

I feel the same way about atheism. And in a forum that welcomes rational religious and political discussions, I will defend my position.

Regarding why Christianity is indeed monotheism, the best way to explain it is simply:
God the Father: God around us.
God the Son: God alongside us.
God the Holy Spirit: God within us.
Different facets of the same Creator.

 

[1001001]

I feel the same way about atheism. And in a forum that welcomes rational religious and political discussions, I will defend my position.

Good for you.

PS: I’m not an atheist.

 

[Oddish]

Good for you.

PS: I’m not an atheist.

Didn't accuse you of being one.

 

[dupersuper]

Didn't accuse you of being one.

Accuse? I'm an atheist...I guess I'm confessing.

 

[Oddish]

One of my longest lasting online friends was as well. He respected my decision to believe differently, and we got on great.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

It's impossible to accurately explain the Trinity using analogy, because the Trinity is a unique thing in all of eternity. There's nothing anywhere to compare the nature of our Triune God, and to do so using analogy always ends up wrong.

Wrong?? Huh, really? How so?

I find this position to be questionable and part of the problem Christianity has in communicating itself.

I find it laughable that you pick this thread to go on your heresy hunt when people are defending Christianity against the charge of unknowingly being polytheistic.

If your claim is true and all analogies are guilty of missing the substance to the point of being NON-USEFUL, then you are the one that really needs to answer the question of why Christianity is not polytheistic because your position seems inherently incomprehensible and begs the "mystery pass" while you appoint yourself Inquisitor of all believers who engage here.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

I feel the same way about atheism. And in a forum that welcomes rational religious and political discussions, I will defend my position.

Regarding why Christianity is indeed monotheism, the best way to explain it is simply:
God the Father: God around us.
God the Son: God alongside us.
God the Holy Spirit: God within us.
Different facets of the same Creator.

I would amend God the Father as God over us, but not too bad imo.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I find it laughable ...

Glad you're amused.