Money in the Federation - let's try and settle this!!

[Anticitizen]

Fanboys? Dystopia? Cynicism?

I'm having a little trouble deconstructing your post, but I'd like to point out that the communist ideal may not be everyone's idea of a utopia.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I think I just had the answer revealed to me while watching TV. By the 24th century, there is no money, because everyone is paid in GUM.

 

[T'Girl]

What does everyone do? I think it's important that, except for Data and the exo-comp in one episode, we never see any thing on screen remotely like a robot. What keeps earth of the future from turning into a total lethargic existence is that at some point, as a group, the people of earth stopped automating their lifes. They weren't going to just lay on couches all day and have food, drinks and bed-pans brought to them. A philosophical thing, a part of living your life is being productive inside the group.

Or get your lazy ass out of the house and get a job, or TPTB are going to shut down your replicator.

 

[Anwar]

Fanboys? Dystopia? Cynicism?

I'm having a little trouble deconstructing your post, but I'd like to point out that the communist ideal may not be everyone's idea of a utopia.

He was just wondering why everyone seems to think that a future devoid of scarcity inhabited by people who do work for the sake of helping others is such a horrible thing.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I'm having a little trouble deconstructing your post, but I'd like to point out that the communist ideal may not be everyone's idea of a utopia.

Communism, in theory, is complete state control of resources for the common good.

I don't think this applies to the Federation. Seems more like the lack of scarcity means that, beyond certain materials controlled for security reasons, there is no need for anyone to do much management of resources. It's actually capitalism - but with nearly infinite supply driving the value of everything to practically zero.

 

[Harry Palmer]

They have money. What's more they have a currency which readily transferable into other currencies such as gold pressed latinum. How do you think the Chief and Bashir payed their tab at Quark's? The Federation is not altogether different from our own. With the exception that everyone receives food, clothing, shelter, and medical care. Anything beyond that requires labor. Who do you think fixes all the replicators and toilets? Or works the midnight shift down at the antimatter reactor?

 

[USS Triumphant]

How do you think the Chief and Bashir payed their tab at Quark's?

I figure that the core worlds of the Federation probably have a huge stock of gold-pressed latinum and other currency materials that are relatively worthless to them since they don't use them as currency - but whenever Starfleet or other Federation agencies need to deal with an external vendor that does operate with a currency material, they open a line of credit and draw on those stores to pay with.

 

[Harry Palmer]

^In other words they have money.

 

[USS Triumphant]

^In other words they have money.

Well, yeah - but it isn't money that the majority of the citizenry normally has to deal with, since it's only for external trade.

 

[Timewalker]

"Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century.

"Well, we don't."

You know, I've never taken this to mean anything more than that people in the future don't walk around with coins in their pockets or bills in their wallets. But DeSalle will bet you CREDITS to navy beans they still have ways of conducting financial transactions.

I'm in agreement. Remember, in the movie Kirk made a comment about "they're still using money; we have to get some" (paraphrased). Basically, the Federation operates on a sort of cashless society for most things - particularly in Starfleet - but that doesn't mean the idea of having to pay for what you get is obsolete.

It's like now, in some places - I was flabbergasted when I was looking for a pay phone at a local mall and the only one I found did not accept coins. This pay phone only accepted cards. Since I don't carry a cell phone with me, I had to hunt up some shop clerk who would actually allow me to call a taxi so I could get home!

Obviously this is a situation that wouldn't work except on the most "civilized" (aka technologically advanced) planets like Earth or Vulcan. Remember when Ensign Ro and Picard were on their undercover assignment in the episode where she defected to the Maquis? She was posing as a prostitute and had to remind Picard that he needed to show his currency and they were supposed to be negotiating her price. I'm sure the underground economy is just as prevalent in the 24th century as it is in the here-and-now, and there are some kinds of transactions that people understandably don't want recorded in some Federation bank...

BTW, the scene with Kirk, Gillian, and the pizza? Kirk would have been justified in not offering to pick up the cheque anyway, for two reasons: One, he didn't have much 20th century currency and had to save it in case of a real emergency; two, it was Gillian who issued the invitation. Of course, she hoped Kirk would be a gentleman, but alas...

 

[Harry Palmer]

"Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century.

"Well, we don't."

You know, I've never taken this to mean anything more than that people in the future don't walk around with coins in their pockets or bills in their wallets. But DeSalle will bet you CREDITS to navy beans they still have ways of conducting financial transactions.

I'm in agreement. Remember, in the movie Kirk made a comment about "they're still using money; we have to get some" (paraphrased). Basically, the Federation operates on a sort of cashless society for most things - particularly in Starfleet - but that doesn't mean the idea of having to pay for what you get is obsolete.

Bingo.

 

[paudemge]

You know, I've never taken this to mean anything more than that people in the future don't walk around with coins in their pockets or bills in their wallets. But DeSalle will bet you CREDITS to navy beans they still have ways of conducting financial transactions.

I'm in agreement. Remember, in the movie Kirk made a comment about "they're still using money; we have to get some" (paraphrased). Basically, the Federation operates on a sort of cashless society for most things - particularly in Starfleet - but that doesn't mean the idea of having to pay for what you get is obsolete.

Bingo.

I'm not up to speed on any Trek besides TOS, but I don't think it was ever implied they don't have to pay for stuff, or have money. The line from VI to me implied they don't have to carry any kind of currency (we are close to that now). Remember Kirk also once told Scotty he had earned his pay for the week. So I think they do get paid, and do have to buy most of what they want.

 

[Anwar]

In TNG they also imply they buy things as early as "Encounter at Farpoint", but it's usually from non-Fed merchants. So they do get credits, but they're only really good for outside the Federation.

 

[The Castellan]

I figure that the core worlds of the Federation probably have a huge stock of gold-pressed latinum and other currency materials that are relatively worthless to them since they don't use them as currency - but whenever Starfleet or other Federation agencies need to deal with an external vendor that does operate with a currency material, they open a line of credit and draw on those stores to pay with.

That's how I felt about it, too. Federation does not use money itself, but uses it when dealing with outside agencies that do.

And "earned your pay for the week" might be a mere expression, I think.

Whatever the real answer is, it HAS to be different from what we have now, otherwise there would be no boldly going where no one has gone before.....it would merely be Kirk and McCoy working their asses off to pay off bills and expenses till the day they die. Plus with there seemingly no fossel fuels and not many diseases....big oil and big pharmacudical companies, and probably all the typical big corporations would have gone the way of the dodo, since the life seen in Star Trek would have no use for greedy, corrupt business.....with Ferengi excluded.

 

[Char Aznable]

In TNG they also imply they buy things as early as "Encounter at Farpoint", but it's usually from non-Fed merchants. So they do get credits, but they're only really good for outside the Federation.

Well, if I remember correctly, we see Dr. Crusher shopping for fabric or whatever, but we don't see her pay for anything and the merchant guy doesn't name a price. Perhaps it was free?

 

[Timewalker]

Nope, it wasn't free. She asked that it be "charged" to her.

 

[The Castellan]

Nope, it wasn't free. She asked that it be "charged" to her.

I think people in Starfleet, maybe even outside Starfleet, has access to an account they can use when doing a transaction outside the federation. The Bandi were not a Federation member, mind you.

Also, wealth is also not a factor in Federation life, since in "Cat's Paw" when Kirk, Spock and McCoy were offered platters full of gem stones, Kirk pretty much said that those gems mean nothing to them. Weather or not there's money is not a big issue, but the fact that things have changed....today money is pretty much an ultimate goal, sadly. In the Federation, if there is money, it's not their driving force....to them, if there is money, it's just a means to an end, not the end itself, as it's sadly today.

 

[Anticitizen]

Also, wealth is also not a factor in Federation life, since in "Cat's Paw" when Kirk, Spock and McCoy were offered platters full of gem stones, Kirk pretty much said that those gems mean nothing to them.

Actually, he said they could manufacture them easily. So while gem stones may not have value, it doesn't mean there's no such thing as wealth.

There is clearly some sort of money in Star Trek, even in the Federation. You had Spock posing as a Vulcan merchant in Errand of Mercy. Ezri's Trill family owned a mining company. And don't forget in 'The Apple', when Kirk rhetorically asks Spock: 'Do you know much Starfleet has invested in you?' Spock starts to reply with, 'Spock starts to reply, "Twenty-two thousand, two hundred...' before Kirk cuts him off.

 

[Anwar]

He may have meant "22 thousand, 200 hours of training and classes". It could be an intellectual investment.

 

[The Castellan]

He may have meant "22 thousand, 200 hours of training and classes". It could be an intellectual investment.

I always felt that, too.