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Money in the Federation - let's try and settle this!!

Why wouldn't there be a fixed value for them? (Perhaps fixed differently for every customer, but still fixed.) All I'm saying is that they have no value for the Feds themselves - that the Fed consumer cannot use his credits for purchasing Fed products. Either because this helps the internal UFP economy run more smoothly, or simply because the Feds religiously hate money and refuse to have anything to do with it.

We know next to nothing about how the UFP economy is run. But we know that it is crucially important for the Feds not to be caught using money. They spit over their left shoulder three times every time anybody even suggests such a thing, so clearly the economy is rigged so that it can make do without money.

Timo Saloniemi
 
"Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century.

"Well, we don't."
You know, I've never taken this to mean anything more than that people in the future don't walk around with coins in their pockets or bills in their wallets. But DeSalle will bet you CREDITS to navy beans they still have ways of conducting financial transactions. ;)
 
Oh? I took it to mean that Kirk was broke in the 23rd. (Which he'd probably be, since Starfleet would have confiscated or frozen all his assets.) :devil:

(Yes, it's "have", not "use"...)

As for sayings that involve anachronisms such as navy beans, I'm sure they are legally allowed to include further anachronisms such as credits. :P

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ultimately, competition is an important part of the human psyche, and that is why Capitalism is usually the most fair and realistic system. It makes good people better, and keeps the bad ones from becoming infectious.

Unless you bring up stuff like Big Oil, Pharmacudicals, insurance companies, and so on.

Just makes the bad people more powerful.

Whatever system Trek has, it's A HELL of alot better than what we got now. And I'd trade all it in for a Trek life. :p
 
"Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century.

"Well, we don't."
You know, I've never taken this to mean anything more than that people in the future don't walk around with coins in their pockets or bills in their wallets. But DeSalle will bet you CREDITS to navy beans they still have ways of conducting financial transactions. ;)

Y'know one thing about this situation is that I have this weird feeling that the restaurant may not be willing to accept Federation credits from Kirk.

Robert
 
"Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century.

"Well, we don't."
You know, I've never taken this to mean anything more than that people in the future don't walk around with coins in their pockets or bills in their wallets. But DeSalle will bet you CREDITS to navy beans they still have ways of conducting financial transactions. ;)

This is the perception I had from that exhange in The Voyage Home, then later TNG just came out stated there is no monetary economy as we know it in the future.
 
There has to be some measure of 'wealth' and method to buy and sell finite resources. Yeah, machines can take care of all our food/entertainment/whatever needs, but just look at Picard's huge family vineyard. Suppose I also want to live in France and run a vineyard. How do I convince someone to give me a parcel of land that's currently all owned? Today, I'd buy it, if I had the dough. What do they do in Trek-Future? Go to the government and whine and say 'i want some of this land, it's not fair, this is supposed to be paradise!' ?
 
^I suppose, if you wanted to run the Picard vineyard, you'd start by approaching Picard about exchanging deeds, or something. Negotiating and bartering in some way. Not necessarily exchange currency, but the two of you could come to an agreement. I mean, even today, you can say you want to buy real estate, and you could even have the money to buy it, but if the current owner won't sell, what do you do? Complain to government? Sue! I suppose you could do the same in the 24th century. There are still courts, I imagine.
 
Nah, today, you don't sue, because virtually everything has a price, and virtually anything can be bought. Hooray money!
 
It does make you wonder exactly what did Picard's brother and wife do when they weren't tending to their vineyard or tiding the house?
 
Nah, today, you don't sue, because virtually everything has a price, and virtually anything can be bought. Hooray money!

Things can only be bought if both parties are willing to make an exchange of some sort. It doesn't have to be money.

If Picard didn't want to exchange the vineyard, for money or anything else, well, then Anticitizen, you would be out of luck in any century.

Anyway, in the 24th century, even land may not be considered particularly scarce. Whole planets are continuously being colonized; surely some of them would have climates favorable for wine-growing. So if someone really wanted a vineyard, they could start one on some other planet if they couldn't find one on Earth to "buy". And even on Earth, there are projects to create more land, namely the Atlantis project that tempted Picard to leave Starfleet in "Family".
 
What brilliant replies from everyone! :)

STR I'm assuming you're tackling the issue with more than just a passing knowledge of economics? Fantastic couple of posts, really interesting.
Used to major in it.My minor in philosophy was equally useful in boiling it down to the two basic questions. 1) What is the purpose of an economy. 2) Would the purpose of an economy be different if the producers and consumers of the future had Trek level of Technology.
Unless you work effectively as a voluneer, like many people today do charity work for example, I still can't escape the notion that you'd basically have nothing to do with your time and become bored. So are we to believe that the hundreds of thousands of Starfleet officers are volunteers?
If you've ever worked, or know someone who does/did, in a retail location that accepts food stamps you'd know there's a lot of freeloaders out there today. (Can these buy a pack of smokes and a lottery ticket?) However, Trekonomics is a saving grace there too. Not only does it make production cost nothing, but consumption as well. You can have 20-30% of the population doing nothing productive and it won't strain your society, because even one worker can produce enough to support a thousand people.

But let me back up a bit and explain that. In America or Great Britain (or any early industrial power) 100 years ago, a family would have two parents, and a half dozen or more children. The father would work at a factory. Any child over the age of 5 or 6 would work, probably the same factory as dad. So for one non-productive infant, you would have five siblings and father at work in the factory, and a mom homemaking (converting income to a reasonable household). That's 5 workers financially supporting two non-working (in the financial sense of the term) people. That's 2.5 workers per nonworker. Even after child labor laws, you might have a 1.5:1 ratio, as everyone aged 14 or more laboring. Farms are exempt, so you still had the whole family working.

So let's say, for the sake of rounding, that's 2 laborers per non-laborer, each labor working 12 hour shifts, so 30 hours of work a day to support a single nonworker. Now let's look at today. Today we have two parents working, while having (say) 2 children. However, we also have socialism today. That family is supporting 2 children, a senior citizen on social security, and another person on government assistance (medical, or finiancial, it doesn't matter). That's 2 workers supporting 4 nonworkers. Do that math and...

In 100 years we've going from working 30 hours a day to support 1 nonworker to 4 a day. That's without replicators. So in 300 years, we may only need 1 person, out of 100 or 1,000 people (at minimum mind you), to support all those freeloaders.

However, going back to my good friend here, I'll continue

I still can't escape the notion that you'd basically have nothing to do with your time and become bored.
Which is why more than .1% of the population will be productive at a time. We could end up with half the population, at any time, is not working. Even 2/3. In fact, it very well could be that a Trekonomy (TM) only needs 1/3 of the Federation population to fill every position in the market. The other 2/3 are surplus, much akin to modern American factory works who (while they blame outsourcing) have lost millions of jobs to automation. Yeah, Ford makes cars in Mexico, but that was after they replaced 200 people with 1 robot arm that's serviced by 1 tech that does other things most of the time.

Automation brings me back to my main point in my previous post. There are no menial tasks in the Trekonomy. ALL factory jobs are automated. Most factory robots are serviced by automated repair services, which in turn are serviced by other repair robots. 1 supervisor and 2 technicians (all part-time) can run a factory that would today require 2000 full-time workers.

what of the 'grunt work' like sitting monitoring the antimatter pods in the lower decks? Transporter operators like O'Brien who appear to just stand in an empty transporter room waiting for someone to turn up? Volunteer for jobs like that just out of a sense of bettering humanity?
Neither of those two jobs have much in common with modern grunt-work. Both would require a good education in particle physics and complex systems engineering. O'Brien may not have gone to the academy, but he damn sure had to go to some other college. Furthermore, both those jobs have upward mobility. You start off staring at a transporter, but soon you're in charge of maintaining an entire space station. As stated previously, bettering humanity is just a vain way of saying "bettering myself, so I can be better than you." It's ultimately self interest that motivates most individuals in the Trekonomy.

Let's take a comical interlude before continuing.

It does make you wonder exactly what did Picard's brother and wife do when they weren't tending to their vineyard or tiding the house?

Making Renee. And we're back...

And I don't think they are same old humans competing for something else, may be they were that in 22nd century.

Sure they are. We're the same selfish, impatient, reackless, careless, violent pricks as Cain and Abel (more Cain than Abel, but I digress). The only thing that's changed humanity in the last 5,000 years is technology. Look at warfare. We've got 60 ton heavily computerized tanks run on materials unimaginable 20 years ago using tactics invented by Alexander the Great. Why expect that to change in a mere 300 years?

Please note, that while I agree with GR that a moneyless economy is feasible (and may even be preferred), we do so for completely different reasons. GR believed the same as the good Emperor here, that humanity is currently childish, but will grow up. I am far more cynical, so much so that I expect large segments of the population to mooch off of a minority of workers who are motivated by a combination of altruism, boredom, insecurity and vanity.
 
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Huh. So we both agree that ST, as intended, portrayed a somehow evolved and mature humanity, but in reality that's impossible.

Hmm...

That makes for a boring argument. How about one of us switches sides and keep at it until one of us throws a personal insult? :guffaw:

Cheers, honorable and exalted Emperor.
 
I too think it's too short a time, but, hey, things change faster and faster.

Though, time was, Trek used to leave the specifics of dates, as well as "treknology," more vague. Made things easier. I try to keep focus on the level of human evolution being portrayed more than the dates. 300 years or 1000, it's set when it's set. I'd like to know when as much as anyone, but the more unnecessary, half-hearted, details we get, the more holes we poke into them. Holes that then require countless haphazard rationalizations that turn the whole thing into farce.

Then again, maybe 300 isn't too short a time. After all, I don't think they mean humanity "evolved" in the physical sense (i.e. growing flippers)...that we grew more "nobility neurons"...but that in 300 years our technology, customs, and psyches reached a higher level of efficiency, of human-ness. Side note: In the early TNG episode "Hide and Q", that evolution continues with the Q fearing we'll surpass them in eons hence.

And there's my haphazard rationalization.
 
Nothing to add but my sincere thanks for a magnificent thread. This has been a terrific read.

Byron
 
"Why do people work in jobs if everything is handed to them for nothing?"

Who says people do work in jobs in the 24th century society of Earth? I mean, do we have any evidence that humans of that era need to work? I don't think we do.

It's entirely possible that most of the human population on Earth is doing exactly nothing productive. Hard to imagine, but it's a logical consequence of a the technology depicted in Star Trek.

I suspect that for the portion of the population that would find such an existence boring, there are numerous outlets. Starfleet, for one. Colonization projects, for another. And for the people who don't feel the need to leave Earth, but want to do something, I think there must be a great deal of art being produced. Paintings, sculptures, music, plays, art of all sorts of would be produced for enjoyment, both in making and viewing. For instance, I think it's likely that Joseph Sisko runs his restaurant in New Orleans simply for the pleasure of producing dishes for people to eat, like a museum or gallery for traditional Cajun food, or whatever it is that Sisko's serves.

So, frankly, I don't think most of the people of Earth do work at all. If people do anything all day, it would be activities that would be considered hobbies or leisure activities nowadays.
Sounds like hell to me.
 
In the 23rd C, there was still capitalism and money.

In the 24th C, replicators changed everything.
It's entirely possible that most of the human population on Earth is doing exactly nothing productive.
Yup. That may be why we hardly ever hear about them. They're boooooring.

It does make you wonder exactly what did Picard's brother and wife do when they weren't tending to their vineyard or tiding the house?

In addition to replicators, they also have holosuites. ;)
 
Why is it fanboys insist on seeing Earth as a sinister dystopia? Is a working utopia really so terrifying? Dystopia is easy. Joe Klein comes to mind: "I've often said that cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre. Cynicism is certainly incompatible with a nation that believes in its future, believes that it can act creatively for the common good.

I see Earth as a place of power and creativity, family and learning, peace and discovery, debate and unity, learning and innovation... You think all those advanced starships replicate themselves via the Holy Ghost? That it's easy uniting the civilizations of 150 alien species and countless more beings from non-aligned worlds? That our heroes are decent, spirited, and strong, but still everyone else in the Federation is a drugged-up peon like those 21st century post-atomic horror soldiers from the "Encounter at Farpoint"? Fellas have some pride! A Federation citizen would scrap the fleet, the interstellar community, everything, and start over in a log cabin on Berengaria...scibbling on papyrus "We the People...", "E=mc2...", "Call me Ishmael..." rather than live in that rot.
 
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