• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Moffat: The Whole Rotten Saga

While i didn't quite like Jackie, her dynamic with Rose was important, I think, as it gave some needed new dimensions to the companion dynamic that was previously not that explored in OldWho. It said that companions could be like regular people, and enforced the idea that anyone could be a companion.

Martha's family was never really explored beyond Smith & Jones, though.

I get what you mean about jackie, which is why I don't put her on the same level as Martha's Mom. Jackie had a point, even if I think she was used too often and she was annoying.

Martha's family was just around to complain. Martha is already probably the most bland companion (at least in NuWho, possibly in the franchise), and her family, specifically her Mother, were unbearable.
 
I forgot about Rory's Dad. he was fine. But, generally speaking, I dislike the NuWho approach of "Companion as main character". I'm here to watch a show called Doctor Who, and I want the show to focus on The Doctor. Not completely ignore the companion of course, but at this point I'm tired of The Doctor playing second fiddle to random person from present day earth #132489 (and I say that as someone whose favorite companions are Amy and Rory).

That said, as long as we don't get another Clara I'll deal with the companions getting a bit too much focus. No more impossible girl bullshit or anything like that is what I consider my bare minimum requirement from nuWho companions at this point.

I would rather have the modern campaigns than the thin ersatz things called characters we had in the classic era—only a few were actual characters.

I turn in to watch Doctor Who, not just for the Doctor but for the show. The show doesn’t work without a companion. The Doctor is a great character but doesn’t work well in a vacuum. They tried that with a story during Tom’s era.

The better crafted the companion the better the show, the more interesting is the Doctor.

The problem isn’t whether or not we see their families or their jobs, it’s the execution.

I would rather have full characters than a girl running around in a mini skirt screaming as the Doctor shouts exposition at her.
 
For all the complaints that Clara dominated the show for two seasons, people seem to forget that Rose had a lot of attention in the RTD era for four seasons, even when she wasn't on screen. ;)
 
I would rather have the modern campaigns than the thin ersatz things called characters we had in the classic era—only a few were actual characters.

I turn in to watch Doctor Who, not just for the Doctor but for the show. The show doesn’t work without a companion. The Doctor is a great character but doesn’t work well in a vacuum. They tried that with a story during Tom’s era.

The better crafted the companion the better the show, the more interesting is the Doctor.

The problem isn’t whether or not we see their families or their jobs, it’s the execution.

I would rather have full characters than a girl running around in a mini skirt screaming as the Doctor shouts exposition at her.

I think that’s an unfair characterisation, for a start people generally like the Deadly Assassin, and there’s more than one ‘no companion’ story in the modern era, though granted, they usually have a stand in (the last episode we saw is technically a no companion story for instance.) I also think that there is more varied companion characters in the classic series (though it’s all one big series.) or are Ace, Peri, Vislor Turlough, Leela, Sarah Jane Smith, Zoe Heriot and Steven all one great gestalt?
The companions in the RTD era were indeed much more cookie cutter.
 
For all the complaints that Clara dominated the show for two seasons, people seem to forget that Rose had a lot of attention in the RTD era for four seasons, even when she wasn't on screen. ;)
Trust me, people haven't forgotten. I certainly haven't. Just like a lot of people have shit-hated on Moffat, the same was true during the Davies era. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
I'm currently on a binge watch for Arrow. I dropped out after season 4, but I'm eager to watch season 5 and 6. After that, I planned on watching Flash. However, I'm feeling good about a Doctor Who rewatch now. Who had me for series 1-6. Series 7-9 is where it lost me. I haven't seen series 10.

I may do a series/show runner comparison after this all finishes.
 
Last edited:
I think that’s an unfair characterisation, for a start people generally like the Deadly Assassin, and there’s more than one ‘no companion’ story in the modern era, though granted, they usually have a stand in (the last episode we saw is technically a no companion story for instance.) I also think that there is more varied companion characters in the classic series (though it’s all one big series.) or are Ace, Peri, Vislor Turlough, Leela, Sarah Jane Smith, Zoe Heriot and Steven all one great gestalt?
The companions in the RTD era were indeed much more cookie cutter.

I don’t think it’s unfair at all. And I don’t know how you could call Rose and Donna, even Martha cookie cutter. That boggles the mind.

How is Captain Jack cookie cutter?
 
I don’t think it’s unfair at all. And I don’t know how you could call Rose and Donna, even Martha cookie cutter. That boggles the mind.

How is Captain Jack cookie cutter?

I’ll give you Jack, but Captain Scarlet there barely qualifies as a full companion xD
The others?
Single female who loses/nearly loses romantic interest, journeys with the Doctor and forms an attachment, romantic inclined for Rose and Martha, not so for Donna, but BFF...each only as a reaction to the one that came before. We are introduced to their family, of each, the Mother is the prime mover, and the father is in some way absent (Martha had a brother, but that largely served to give Reggies something to talk about and give RTD the BBC trifecta...comic, DJ, CBBC presenter...he got one of each in, with Cribbins as the bonus ball.) Wilf is something of an exception to this, though he is also in many ways a continuation of the Mickey theme...a character who stays behind, but is nonetheless involved. All three work in more or less stereotypical female roles...the shop assistant, the caregiver, the ‘secretary’. They are all from working-class backgrounds, with Martha being more middle-class due to her profession (salt of the earth) and all from present day earth, London, the South East. (Ironic, there were probably less London centric stories when the show was made in London.) They are all aged within a rough twenty year span, none particularly old, none particularly young, they are almost deliberately unremarkable, yearning for more than where they have ended up. It’s not impossible to imagine them being acquaintances of each other even.
Now...Amy and Rory deliberately echo all of those set-ups, except, they are seem to be deliberately deconstructing the RTD mold too...the same is very true of Clara too. Moffat basically spends a lot of time stretching the RTD patterns...Rory is Mickey in some ways, in other ways he has everything Mickey lacks (a clear backstory, a career, motivation) Amy is as much the stereotype as her predecessors...right until she isn’t, she has successful careers, does not pine after the Doctor as such, and manages to have a wedding without anyone dying (particularly the groom...except it’s Rory, so he did that earlier. Like Mickey, Rory even got be plastic fantastic, but managed to also be real.) we meet her parents (she manages to be an orphan, then not an orphan, covering Donna and Rose and Martha all at once.) but they are absolutely unimportant and we never ever dwell on them. We meet Rory’s father, but...he is just one of many positive father models in Moffat era Who (they are pretty much all negative stereotypes in the RTD era, even poor old wheeler dealer Pete Tyler) who focuses on a much less dysfunctional family unit than RTD did...largely because he’s not interested in milking it for soap opera drama (every single RTD companion could show up in Albert Square tomorrow and fit right in. Amy and Rory probably wouldn’t...Amy is Scottish, and Take the High Road has been cancelled.) Jackie Tyler is a comedy matriarch, straight out of Only Fools and Horses, Amy is a matriarchal figure in several episodes, but is typically more than that, and more balanced with Rory. It’s a totally different paradigm, before we even get to Clara, the impossible girl who fills several functions but is fundamentally turning into a Doctor character but for deeper reasons than River Song before her. (Someone else has already pointed out her post Pink death wish, so I don’t need to go into that. The only thing that throws me is how she and the Doctor got out of his time stream after Faction Paradoxing it to the nines with Richard E Grant vanishing.) Bill is another character that on the surface shares much with the RTD era...she’s almost a bookend to Rose (bother served chips, both have lost a parent) but was reaching for something by herself...she didn’t need the Doctor to come along and show her how to better herself, she was already doing that, and that’s why the Doctor befriended her.
Now, I have no bone with the RTD era, it had some good stuff, I have no dislike for the companions, but they were not very varied beyond a sort of guess-who game, and didn’t have lives that seemed very deep or varied from each other. Moffat sometimes went off a convoluted deep end (the Pond Family makes the Summers boys in X-Men seem..scratch that, they are about the same level of crazy) but always by going a step further with each character, and hit emotional punches as a natural outgrowth of the stories...not by reaching for the big book of soap opera histrionics.
Going full circle back to Captain Jack, he’s a character that only really gets developed outside of his Who appearances. In Who he’s just a very undeveloped action hero flirt, later a blatant Gerry Anderson in joke (when the Valiant rocks up, it becomes obvious someone’s having a giraffe.) but with a few lines here and there that could have, but never did, go deeper (him being involved in the Time War just never comes up again after his line in Parting of the Ways.) whereas all the Moffat companions went deep and felt exhausted when when we left their wells (apart from Nardole, who is like a comedy introversion of Jack, since he’s functionally immortal, I have a hard time deciding if it’s him or Rory the ever-dying who is more of a commentary on Jack.)
I think it’s telling that even Handles, in one episode, seems to have a bigger arc and impact than poor wasted Martha Jones (she really should have got a better crack at the whip, even if it meant more Torchwood.)
 
I’ll give you Jack, but Captain Scarlet there barely qualifies as a full companion xD
The others?
Single female who loses/nearly loses romantic interest, journeys with the Doctor and forms an attachment, romantic inclined for Rose and Martha, not so for Donna, but BFF...each only as a reaction to the one that came before. We are introduced to their family, of each, the Mother is the prime mover, and the father is in some way absent (Martha had a brother, but that largely served to give Reggies something to talk about and give RTD the BBC trifecta...comic, DJ, CBBC presenter...he got one of each in, with Cribbins as the bonus ball.) Wilf is something of an exception to this, though he is also in many ways a continuation of the Mickey theme...a character who stays behind, but is nonetheless involved. All three work in more or less stereotypical female roles...the shop assistant, the caregiver, the ‘secretary’. They are all from working-class backgrounds, with Martha being more middle-class due to her profession (salt of the earth) and all from present day earth, London, the South East. (Ironic, there were probably less London centric stories when the show was made in London.) They are all aged within a rough twenty year span, none particularly old, none particularly young, they are almost deliberately unremarkable, yearning for more than where they have ended up. It’s not impossible to imagine them being acquaintances of each other even.
Now...Amy and Rory deliberately echo all of those set-ups, except, they are seem to be deliberately deconstructing the RTD mold too...the same is very true of Clara too. Moffat basically spends a lot of time stretching the RTD patterns...Rory is Mickey in some ways, in other ways he has everything Mickey lacks (a clear backstory, a career, motivation) Amy is as much the stereotype as her predecessors...right until she isn’t, she has successful careers, does not pine after the Doctor as such, and manages to have a wedding without anyone dying (particularly the groom...except it’s Rory, so he did that earlier. Like Mickey, Rory even got be plastic fantastic, but managed to also be real.) we meet her parents (she manages to be an orphan, then not an orphan, covering Donna and Rose and Martha all at once.) but they are absolutely unimportant and we never ever dwell on them. We meet Rory’s father, but...he is just one of many positive father models in Moffat era Who (they are pretty much all negative stereotypes in the RTD era, even poor old wheeler dealer Pete Tyler) who focuses on a much less dysfunctional family unit than RTD did...largely because he’s not interested in milking it for soap opera drama (every single RTD companion could show up in Albert Square tomorrow and fit right in. Amy and Rory probably wouldn’t...Amy is Scottish, and Take the High Road has been cancelled.) Jackie Tyler is a comedy matriarch, straight out of Only Fools and Horses, Amy is a matriarchal figure in several episodes, but is typically more than that, and more balanced with Rory. It’s a totally different paradigm, before we even get to Clara, the impossible girl who fills several functions but is fundamentally turning into a Doctor character but for deeper reasons than River Song before her. (Someone else has already pointed out her post Pink death wish, so I don’t need to go into that. The only thing that throws me is how she and the Doctor got out of his time stream after Faction Paradoxing it to the nines with Richard E Grant vanishing.) Bill is another character that on the surface shares much with the RTD era...she’s almost a bookend to Rose (bother served chips, both have lost a parent) but was reaching for something by herself...she didn’t need the Doctor to come along and show her how to better herself, she was already doing that, and that’s why the Doctor befriended her.
Now, I have no bone with the RTD era, it had some good stuff, I have no dislike for the companions, but they were not very varied beyond a sort of guess-who game, and didn’t have lives that seemed very deep or varied from each other. Moffat sometimes went off a convoluted deep end (the Pond Family makes the Summers boys in X-Men seem..scratch that, they are about the same level of crazy) but always by going a step further with each character, and hit emotional punches as a natural outgrowth of the stories...not by reaching for the big book of soap opera histrionics.
Going full circle back to Captain Jack, he’s a character that only really gets developed outside of his Who appearances. In Who he’s just a very undeveloped action hero flirt, later a blatant Gerry Anderson in joke (when the Valiant rocks up, it becomes obvious someone’s having a giraffe.) but with a few lines here and there that could have, but never did, go deeper (him being involved in the Time War just never comes up again after his line in Parting of the Ways.) whereas all the Moffat companions went deep and felt exhausted when when we left their wells (apart from Nardole, who is like a comedy introversion of Jack, since he’s functionally immortal, I have a hard time deciding if it’s him or Rory the ever-dying who is more of a commentary on Jack.)
I think it’s telling that even Handles, in one episode, seems to have a bigger arc and impact than poor wasted Martha Jones (she really should have got a better crack at the whip, even if it meant more Torchwood.)

Seriously. Tl;dr
Life is to short.
 
For all the complaints that Clara dominated the show for two seasons, people seem to forget that Rose had a lot of attention in the RTD era for four seasons, even when she wasn't on screen. ;)

The difference is Rose was usually an ok character. Clara was an asshole who almost murdered The Doctor, and everyone he would ever save afterwards, because her boyfriend died in an accident that The Doctor wasn't involved with. Rose never tried to murder anyone, and she was never as selfish or as big an asshole as Clara. Even the thing with her Dad Rose didn't know what would happen if she tried to save him. On the other hand, Clara tries to murder people because she feels sad. I'll take Rose got over Clara any day of the week, a lot of focus or not being a bad character is a bigger problem.

Trust me, people haven't forgotten. I certainly haven't. Just like a lot of people have shit-hated on Moffat, the same was true during the Davies era. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

God forbid anyone criticize a showrunner (and I say this as someone who both loves and hates parts of both of their eras). Next you'll be angry that people thought that JNT was frequently a doofus.

I would rather have the modern campaigns than the thin ersatz things called characters we had in the classic era—only a few were actual characters.

I turn in to watch Doctor Who, not just for the Doctor but for the show. The show doesn’t work without a companion. The Doctor is a great character but doesn’t work well in a vacuum. They tried that with a story during Tom’s era.

The better crafted the companion the better the show, the more interesting is the Doctor.

The problem isn’t whether or not we see their families or their jobs, it’s the execution.

I would rather have full characters than a girl running around in a mini skirt screaming as the Doctor shouts exposition at her.

I like companions with character. But, somehow, my favorite classic companions like Jamie, Leela, Peri (yes, Peri) etc managed to be good characters who had development without ever taking over the show. The closest we got to a classic companion taking over the show was Ace, and she was at least written well. Its not like there only two types of companions (lets call the sides Zoe and Clara). A good companion is generally somewhere in the middle, with a few exceptions (like Amy/Rory, who were really, really great and the only companions where giving them some focus worked very well in my opinion).

The Doctor is the show. He comes first, then you worry about a companion. Genesis of the Daleks isn't great because of Sarah Jane, Caves of Androzani isn't considered a classic because of Peri and Talons of Wang-Chiang doesn't still have fans (including me) despite its racism because of anything Leela did, and all three of those companions are very good.
 
The difference is Rose was usually an ok character. Clara was an asshole who almost murdered The Doctor, and everyone he would ever save afterwards, because her boyfriend died in an accident that The Doctor wasn't involved with. Rose never tried to murder anyone, and she was never as selfish or as big an asshole as Clara. Even the thing with her Dad Rose didn't know what would happen if she tried to save him. On the other hand, Clara tries to murder people because she feels sad. I'll take Rose got over Clara any day of the week, a lot of focus or not being a bad character is a bigger problem.
Clara almost "murdered" the Doctor over Danny Pink... what? What show are you watching? "Because she feels sad" she was going through the grief of losing someone in a horrible way and snapped.
Also Rose being a more likeable character, please. She was whiny and bratty and selfish during Series 1 and 2. Look at School Reunion when she becomes a jealous mess over Sarah Jane because she thought she was SPECIAL.
 
poor wasted Martha Jones (she really should have got a better crack at the whip, even if it meant more Torchwood.)

I prefer Martha over Rose, so in that sense I agree. Although I'd point out that Martha appeared in more episodes than Donna. Meanwhile, while Rose, Martha, Amy, Clara, & Bill all definitively felt like THE companion during their runs, Donna spent most of her run sharing the spotlight with other companions like Martha, River, and then the whole damn cast at the end of the season!

God forbid anyone criticize a showrunner (and I say this as someone who both loves and hates parts of both of their eras). Next you'll be angry that people thought that JNT was frequently a doofus.

I will say that, based on the way JNT is treated by fans & former co-workers, Whovians don't believe in the axiom "Don't speak ill of the dead."
 
I dunno, part of the reason I don't love the third series is because of the Martha situation. She's the post-Rose companion and RTD really had to have the Doctor linger on Rose's exit in such a way that made Martha the sad puppy of the deal. Not cool.
 
I dunno, part of the reason I don't love the third series is because of the Martha situation. She's the post-Rose companion and RTD really had to have the Doctor linger on Rose's exit in such a way that made Martha the sad puppy of the deal. Not cool.
I kinda wish Donna had become the companion after "The Runaway Bride". You could have done it the same way, with them meeting a few years later, just make Donna realize her mistake and have her as a B plot trying to find the Doctor. That way, Martha can come in as a regular companion rather than "the rebound companion".

Martha deserved better. She is, after all, the reason the Doctor didn't kill Superman. ;)
 
[QUOTE="kirk55555, post: 12432076, member: 28073”]



I like companions with character. But, somehow, my favorite classic companions like Jamie, Leela, Peri (yes, Peri) etc managed to be good characters who had development without ever taking over the show. The closest we got to a classic companion taking over the show was Ace, and she was at least written well. Its not like there only two types of companions (lets call the sides Zoe and Clara). A good companion is generally somewhere in the middle, with a few exceptions (like Amy/Rory, who were really, really great and the only companions where giving them some focus worked very well in my opinion).

The Doctor is the show. He comes first, then you worry about a companion. Genesis of the Daleks isn't great because of Sarah Jane, Caves of Androzani isn't considered a classic because of Peri and Talons of Wang-Chiang doesn't still have fans (including me) despite its racism because of anything Leela did, and all three of those companions are very good.[/QUOTE]

I feel like we are watching an entirely different show. The Doctor is still clearly the star of the show. Almost everything is about him. The whole Astronaut From The Lake season was about who shot him. Capaldi s first season was all about whether or not he’s a good man now.

The companions are more fleshed out, but that doesn’t mean The Doctor has turned into Giles.
 
What I hated about Rose's story was how at the start she has an ordinary job, a boyfriend, and lives with her mother. A situation shared by millions of people. But she can only be happy when going on life or death adventures with the Doctor. When she has to go back to her old life (but now with her dead father sort of back) she's miserable until she gets her own Doctor.
What kind of message is that for the audience? "Hey young person working a job you hate and still living with your family, you will never be happy unless you get to go on impossible adventures."
 
What I hated about Rose's story was how at the start she has an ordinary job, a boyfriend, and lives with her mother. A situation shared by millions of people. But she can only be happy when going on life or death adventures with the Doctor. When she has to go back to her old life (but now with her dead father sort of back) she's miserable until she gets her own Doctor.
What kind of message is that for the audience? "Hey young person working a job you hate and still living with your family, you will never be happy unless you get to go on impossible adventures."

Actually, I sort of agree with that message.

I don’t think the show was slagging on the job per se or living with your family. I think it was the mindless way Rose was going through her life with. Just doing the job, just sorta dating Mickey, just because... over and over again. Rather than living a life with consciousness, with a sense of adventure. Living a life rather than going through the motions.

By saying yes to something, in this case The Doctor’s invite, she got to do something wonderful. Now, maybe if we said yes to more things, we might be living a happier life.

So, it was more zombie Rose the show was critical of, I think, not the job and living with your family. Rose needed to grow up.

Now, yeah, she could only be happy with a Doctor... ugh.
 
Clara almost "murdered" the Doctor over Danny Pink... what? What show are you watching? "Because she feels sad" she was going through the grief of losing someone in a horrible way and snapped.
Also Rose being a more likeable character, please. She was whiny and bratty and selfish during Series 1 and 2. Look at School Reunion when she becomes a jealous mess over Sarah Jane because she thought she was SPECIAL.

99% of people grieving for a loved one don't try to murder their friends. No one can reasonably justify Clara attempting to murder The Doctor, it is literally impossible. It is not something that a normal, sane person does, period. If your response to grief is to become legitimately homicidal, you are officially mentally unstable at best, and not in a temporary way. She tried to murder a man because her boyfriend died in an accident that the potential victum had nothing to do with. This is not the way a real, normal person reacts, and if you think it is then you should be worried.

Rose could be a bit of a brat, but she was a good person. Clara got closer to permanently murdering The Doctor (as opposed to just causing a regeneration) then any explicit villain in NuWho, unless you want to count Donna's delusion in Turn Left. Hell, even The Master has only gotten that close to murdering the Doctor maybe once, in the TV movie. Freaking Turlough joined with The Doctor specifically to kill him and didn't get anywhere near as close as Clara did.

I feel like we are watching an entirely different show. The Doctor is still clearly the star of the show. Almost everything is about him. The whole Astronaut From The Lake season was about who shot him. Capaldi s first season was all about whether or not he’s a good man now.

The companions are more fleshed out, but that doesn’t mean The Doctor has turned into Giles.

At almost no point in Capaldi's run was the show ever really about The Doctor, except for Heaven Sent and his final story. His first two series were all about that asshole Clara and how super special she is, and Series 10, while a decent season, still has too many stories that only exist because of Bill.

Pre-Capaldi it was a bit better, except 7B which was also all Clara. Rose got a bit too much focus, but The Doctor still did things and entire seasons weren't focused on the companion, even Amy never got the amount of focus Clara got.
 
99% of people grieving for a loved one don't try to murder their friends. No one can reasonably justify Clara attempting to murder The Doctor, it is literally impossible. It is not something that a normal, sane person does, period. If your response to grief is to become legitimately homicidal, you are officially mentally unstable at best, and not in a temporary way. She tried to murder a man because her boyfriend died in an accident that the potential victum had nothing to do with. This is not the way a real, normal person reacts, and if you think it is then you should be worried.

Rose could be a bit of a brat, but she was a good person. Clara got closer to permanently murdering The Doctor (as opposed to just causing a regeneration) then any explicit villain in NuWho, unless you want to count Donna's delusion in Turn Left. Hell, even The Master has only gotten that close to murdering the Doctor maybe once, in the TV movie. Freaking Turlough joined with The Doctor specifically to kill him and didn't get anywhere near as close as Clara did.
When did she try to "murder" the Doctor? You mean when she was throwing the TARDIS keys into that volcano (which turned out to be a dream)? Or is this some magical unaired episode?
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top