Another blubbering fangirl here (actually a granddad who doesn't collect merch or listen to BF).
Moffat: The Whole Rotten Saga
- Thread starter TommyR01D
- Start date
Eleven knew he was, as it stood, the last. He was the only mortal Doctor...well...apart from the fifth who wasn’t sure if he was going to regenerate.
Edit to clarify...Eleven in common parlance, Ashe was technically the thirteenth incarnation.
Man I miss the convoluted stuff of the EDAs. Can anyone imagine seeing stuff like the Sabbath Arc played out after say...the Big Bang? It could have been amazing, and Moffat drifts so close to stuff like Faction Paradox.
Yes, but as 10 explains in that very episode, it’s a death of him. He, 10, will die even if The Doctor will go on.
Yup, that’s the vanity part..and probably the anger at the ‘small’ sacrifice. Saving only Wilf, after building himself up for a bigger fate...he survives everything, but has to die for Wilf alone. Mind you, it sort of plays out like RTDs earlier Second Coming drama. Has to go while he’s a good man, before his power and arrogance corrupts him. You could make a strong argument that it’s this part of him the earlier Time Lords made into Valeyard.
I think it’s true for ALL the Doctors. Each incarnation dies and a new man/woman gets up. It’s not vanity. It’s existential crisis.
You'd think if that were true, more of them would've had an issue with it. Even in "Twice Upon a Time," the First Doctor specifically didn't regard it as a death, but a change, and was horrified by the idea that he'd find his personality altered, and the Twelfth likewise seemed to have tired of having to navigate a whole bunch of new quirks to re-learn how to be himself. Aside from "The End of Time," and some weirdness with multi-Doctor stories that could easily be chalked up to no one knowing how they'd relate to their own time-displaced past- or future-self, the Doctor never seemed to regard the changes the go along with regeneration any differently than one might see a clonk on the head, or going to university, or having children, or any other event that could drastically alter someone's personality (and, sure, appearance).
There's certainly a school of thought that says that the Doctor was always lying outside of "The End of Time," to make people feel better or trade on his prior incarnations' reputation, but I think the better-supported read is that the Doctor's "It feels like dying, some new man saunters off and I'm dead" is about as much of an existential crisis as "You're killing Independent George!"
1st had a problem with it, took the 12th to convince him to change.
2nd had a problem with it, bitched and moaned to the Time Lords about it.
6 and 7 didn’t get a chance to comment.
Ultimately the challenge of understanding the mythos of Doctor Who is that it is being made, added to and changed before our eyes.
A revealing perspective might apply to one Doctor or all of them.
The level to which they mind varies....until the recent changes, Doctor one was accepting, Doctor Two obviously wasn’t as such..it was a ‘death’ sentence...Doctor Three knew it was a price he had to pay, Four knew it was coming but didn’t particularly have a bone with it, Five gave up his life willingly, Six...goodness knows....Seven, didn’t expect it and fought his death but it could have been total death, Eight was flippant, Nine willingly went, but was a bit sad, Ten literally cheated it once then held it off enough to blow the Tardis so he could have a grand tour, Eleven thought he was literally the last, but made conscious choices that meant he knew his death would come, and gave in to it to weaponise it, and twelve nee 14, nee 1, held it off again for reasons unknown...possibly because he was already one past his ‘natural’ life and a bit tired of it all frankly.
Only Ten was narcissistic at the very end, and only him and three were brought there because of arrogance forming (though in Threes case, that’s more word of god than on-screen stuff)
Almost all of the Doctors regents have been somewhat...artificial, by Time Lord standards, and quite a few have occurred outside of the safe environ of the Tardis. I imagine he would have died on Androzani if he hadn’t got into the Tardis, for various reasons.
He called the first regeneration a rejuvenation initially. Personality changes, particularly big ones, are a result of his tendency towards high-risk regeneration. Other Time Lords and Ladies go through less of a change...though that’s been changed a little in the new series. Borusa, Romana...the changes weren’t as massive, and any personality changes are as easily explainable as simply a few more years on the clock rather than being attributed to a particular incarnation.
Even the Master was pretty damn stable through his weird changes, with only the recent new cycle going into full unstable radical change. Ainley Master and Delgado Master, despite the situation, are very stable, and even Simms Master drifted back that way at the same time as being a logical outgrowth of the Ainley Master....Roberts Master and Jacobi Master didn’t exactly give us a lot to go on...and Beevers Master is a very singular situation. He’s what Tennant would have looked like if he had kept holding that artron fart.
One of the things I disliked about RTD was the bombastic emotional feel of it. I have no issues with emotional stuff (not ashamed to say I shed a tear at the end of Paddington 2) it was the manipulative way RTD went about it that rankled. I don't mind feeling emotional, I just don't like being told to feel emotional. I know all shows manipulate viewers, it was just the incredibly unsubtle way RTD went about it. The music is now swelling, so you must now FEEL SOMETHING! I don't dispute other people enjoying that, but for me it usually has the opposite effect (maybe I'm just a contrary bugger).
Moffat's greatest strength was also his greatest weakness in that he was constantly trying to reinvent the show, constantly trying to do something new and exciting (freely admit many of these things weren't either) whereas RTD had a formula and by God he was sticking to it. People complain Moffat reused the same tropes over and over again but forget that every season of RTD Who was basically just a variation on a theme, and I firmly believe if RTD had stayed that people would have got bored of the same old same old. Of course Moffat then almost got addicted to change, to wanting to do something new all the time when the show needed some consistency again after each shift. I actually love series 6, I loved the insane energy of it, its mad as a box of frogs but for me the sheer momentum of it works, but the show needed to find some equilibrium after this, and the inconsistency of Capaldi's portrayal really didn't help. I can see the logic for going down the Colin route, from a certain angle, but it was a brave choice that didn't work. Shame as I'd rather have had three years of 12, Bill and Nardole than the grumpy 12 and Clara show we got.
To sum up, I'll always be more inclined towards team Moff than team RTD, but (big BUT) the differential between those two poles is nowhere near as wide as it once was.
Moffat's greatest strength was also his greatest weakness in that he was constantly trying to reinvent the show, constantly trying to do something new and exciting (freely admit many of these things weren't either) whereas RTD had a formula and by God he was sticking to it. People complain Moffat reused the same tropes over and over again but forget that every season of RTD Who was basically just a variation on a theme, and I firmly believe if RTD had stayed that people would have got bored of the same old same old. Of course Moffat then almost got addicted to change, to wanting to do something new all the time when the show needed some consistency again after each shift. I actually love series 6, I loved the insane energy of it, its mad as a box of frogs but for me the sheer momentum of it works, but the show needed to find some equilibrium after this, and the inconsistency of Capaldi's portrayal really didn't help. I can see the logic for going down the Colin route, from a certain angle, but it was a brave choice that didn't work. Shame as I'd rather have had three years of 12, Bill and Nardole than the grumpy 12 and Clara show we got.
To sum up, I'll always be more inclined towards team Moff than team RTD, but (big BUT) the differential between those two poles is nowhere near as wide as it once was.
^ I have largely the same reaction as you, Starkers--so it was nice that you wrote it up so nicely!
I wholeheartedly agree that if RTD had stayed longer, the complaints about his variations on a theme would've grown. I also found that while I'm generally a bit more on Team Moffat (but still love RTD's era), that as Moffat's reign went on, I became a bit disenchanted. It seemed to me that the continual need to outdo himself and his addiction to change became more detrimental to the series. Also, his inability to effectively conclude the various arcs and threads he started began detracting from the stories to an increasing degree. At least, IMO.
In the end, the difference in the RTD vs Moffat era's became very small in terms of my enjoyment--which I believe is what you're saying as well.
I wholeheartedly agree that if RTD had stayed longer, the complaints about his variations on a theme would've grown. I also found that while I'm generally a bit more on Team Moffat (but still love RTD's era), that as Moffat's reign went on, I became a bit disenchanted. It seemed to me that the continual need to outdo himself and his addiction to change became more detrimental to the series. Also, his inability to effectively conclude the various arcs and threads he started began detracting from the stories to an increasing degree. At least, IMO.
In the end, the difference in the RTD vs Moffat era's became very small in terms of my enjoyment--which I believe is what you're saying as well.
RTD at his worst - Doomsday, Last of the Time Lords, Voyage of the Damned*, Journey's End, The End of Time - Loud, obnoxious camp that relies on soap-like drama, over-the-top visuals, and actors taking giant bites out of the scenery. Villains defeated with the flick of a button with everything more or less back to normal at the end.
Moffat at his worst - The Wedding of River Song, The Time of the Doctor, Hell Bent - Mostly convoluted and twisted, with the endings unresolved leaving you wondering if there was even a point to it.
*Not a finale but one of the absolute worst episodes in NuWho that it deserved a mention
You can see that both RTD and Moffat had different views of Doctor Who - RTD thought it was cheesy sci-fi, Moffat thought it was, well... less cheesy sci-fi.
I prefer the Moffat era as a whole because the drama, acting, and even Murray Gold's music was a lot more subtle. There was no such thing as "subtle" in the RTD era.
Another point - the Moffat era opening episode, The Eleventh Hour, still holds up 8 years later, while RTD's premiere, Rose, is very, very much a product of its time.
Moffat at his worst - The Wedding of River Song, The Time of the Doctor, Hell Bent - Mostly convoluted and twisted, with the endings unresolved leaving you wondering if there was even a point to it.
*Not a finale but one of the absolute worst episodes in NuWho that it deserved a mention
You can see that both RTD and Moffat had different views of Doctor Who - RTD thought it was cheesy sci-fi, Moffat thought it was, well... less cheesy sci-fi.
I prefer the Moffat era as a whole because the drama, acting, and even Murray Gold's music was a lot more subtle. There was no such thing as "subtle" in the RTD era.
Another point - the Moffat era opening episode, The Eleventh Hour, still holds up 8 years later, while RTD's premiere, Rose, is very, very much a product of its time.
I disagree
Moffat could really write a plot. And epic dialogue. RTD...was not as good at either of those things on a regular basis. Moff is also very very good at varied characters, whereas all of RTDs companions fit into a very very small mold. Apart from Captain Scarlet of course. I mean Jack.
I do believe RTD Who will age worse than Moffat's. RTD could do subtle on occasion, take the implication of domestic abuse between the Master and Lucy Saxon, it's just not his preferred style (at least not for Who)
I'm still hoping Chibnall can take the best of both men and add something new. No pressure :-D
Moffat could write a plot... for a stand-alone storyline. He made a mess with long-winded, overarching arcs. RTD couldn't write Blink, but he could write Midnight.
I miss RTD. But I am excited with Chibnall, if not because its decidedly new. Again.
I miss RTD. But I am excited with Chibnall, if not because its decidedly new. Again.
One of his biggest strengths IMO is being able to create genuinely scary moments. Davies was never able to pull it off so well. Some of his stories like Tooth and Claw might be scary to young children, but when you're older you can see it's just a poorly rendered wolf guy running down a passage. His best scary episode is the aforementioned Midnight. And it's almost more Moffaty in style. Moffat used the familiar in frightening ways, Davies tended to just go for monsters running down hallways. To me, nothing Davies wrote ever matched "There is the real world, and the nightmare world. Only the real world is a lie, and the nightmares are real." No monsters are needed, just a line of dialogue playing on a fear we've all had as children.
But he does have some big weaknesses. To me his two biggest ones are villains and cliffhangers. I can't think of a single major villain in DW or Sherlock I've found compelling. Now maybe it's just me, but I couldn't stand Missy and Moriarty. They both suffer from the same problem (and so did Simm's Master) of just being so annoyingly wacky-doodle that I have no idea what their motivation is, and they lack any believability.
His cliffhangers suffer not so much from the set-up, but from the resolution. Too often he tries to be clever by making them complete non sequiturs (if I'm using that term correctly) where the start of part 2 will have nothing to do with where part 1 ends. Hell Bent is an example of this. The previous episode ends with the Doctor returning to Gallifrey, this one starts with him wandering into a diner and playing a guitar. Sure it all sort of makes sense in the end, but why couldn't it just be structured normally?
So after all that, I have to say that Moffat had a pretty good run with some excellent episodes, but I won't miss him. His best stories were behind him by the time he finished. And I know he'd wanted to leave earlier, but still it's unfortunate that he didn't get to go out on a high note.
But he does have some big weaknesses. To me his two biggest ones are villains and cliffhangers. I can't think of a single major villain in DW or Sherlock I've found compelling. Now maybe it's just me, but I couldn't stand Missy and Moriarty. They both suffer from the same problem (and so did Simm's Master) of just being so annoyingly wacky-doodle that I have no idea what their motivation is, and they lack any believability.
His cliffhangers suffer not so much from the set-up, but from the resolution. Too often he tries to be clever by making them complete non sequiturs (if I'm using that term correctly) where the start of part 2 will have nothing to do with where part 1 ends. Hell Bent is an example of this. The previous episode ends with the Doctor returning to Gallifrey, this one starts with him wandering into a diner and playing a guitar. Sure it all sort of makes sense in the end, but why couldn't it just be structured normally?
So after all that, I have to say that Moffat had a pretty good run with some excellent episodes, but I won't miss him. His best stories were behind him by the time he finished. And I know he'd wanted to leave earlier, but still it's unfortunate that he didn't get to go out on a high note.
Is it a coincidence that the Moffat era relied less on CG monsters they knew would age badly in a year or two?
RTD:
Series 1
Nestene Consciousness
Cassandra (she counts)
Gelth
Slitheen (were both CG and practical)
Jagrafess
Reapers
Series 2
Werewolf
Krillitane
The Beast
Series 3
Carrionites
Macra
Lazarus
Toclafane
Series 4
Adipose
Pyroviles
Vespiform
Cyberking
Planet-eating stringrays
Moffat:
Series 5
Atraxi
Space Whale
Saturnyns
Krafayis
Series 6
Sky fish/sky sharks
Mutated Gangers
Series 7
Dinosaurs
Snowmen
Ice Warrior (only once)
Series 8
Boneless
Series 10
Eater of Light
Glass people
RTD:
Series 1
Nestene Consciousness
Cassandra (she counts)
Gelth
Slitheen (were both CG and practical)
Jagrafess
Reapers
Series 2
Werewolf
Krillitane
The Beast
Series 3
Carrionites
Macra
Lazarus
Toclafane
Series 4
Adipose
Pyroviles
Vespiform
Cyberking
Planet-eating stringrays
Moffat:
Series 5
Atraxi
Space Whale
Saturnyns
Krafayis
Series 6
Sky fish/sky sharks
Mutated Gangers
Series 7
Dinosaurs
Snowmen
Ice Warrior (only once)
Series 8
Boneless
Series 10
Eater of Light
Glass people
Last edited:
To be fair, that's a trend many shows are indulging in these days and has less to do with Moffat himself.
I disagree about Moffat. He often has excellent setups but poor to nonexistent resolutions. I might be watching different shows than you, but Moffat's deficiency in resolutions is notable.
