Yeah. Like I said. Rory died more than she did.
Moffat: The Whole Rotten Saga
- Thread starter TommyR01D
- Start date
Yeah. Like I said. Rory died more than she did.
Are you even watching the show? When was this? You keep going "she tried to murder him, she tried to murder him" over and over and in a previous post you claimed she even tried to "prevent his regeneration"
Speaking of the "whole Rotten saga" what about all those open ended things Moffat left on the table? What about the new series 11? Will the Doctor go back and save all those people on the Mondosian ship in front of the black hole? How does she save Nardole? rescue the survivors of the Cybermen/Master Plot? there's things left on the table in the Matt Smith era too.. I mean, for someone who doesn't like criticism of his work, he sure left allot of stuff out there "Plot Holes" and storylines that didn't wrap things up sometimes.. yet when asked about those things, he would dismiss the journalist as being too overly interested it would seem.. Or he got flustered in interviews and quite taken aback that anyone would dare question his brilliance.. I know there are Moffat Cheerleaders on here, I am not attacking your support of the man, I just feel like he could ave listened a bit more, and took his holier then thou attitude down a notch or two and listen a bit more to the fandom as a whole over sectionalized voices who screamed the loudest..
I ain’t gonna disagree. I remember the wilderness years of the show, and I am not exaggerating to say being ‘outed’ as a Doctor Who fan was not entirely dissimilar to being outed as gay in an all boys school. (Given the existence of Real world fan group ‘the sisterhood of karn’ there’s probably a big crossover, but it’s not really my area) so I definitely know a thing or two about growing up with the show and watching it evolve across media. It still shocks me to see it as this international thing, lauded drama etc....I mean there’s that feeling of vindication, but I also have this feeling of ‘where the fuck were all you guys twenty years ago? We coulda used the help..’ xD
But yeah, my serious point is about how people come to the show, will inform what it is to them. The people who see ‘SF Drama’ vs ‘SF Family show’ vs ‘kids show’ and those who see the cocktail, but will argue over the ratios. Those who see it as an iconic cultural artefact with a history, those who see it as pop culture of the now, and there’s a clash that bring (hence dickheads chasing Davison off Twitter, because they needed a Zygon Inversion of their own.)
It’s very...tribal. But the world seems to be these days.
Moffat knows how full of ‘i’ll Explain later’ the show is. He and RTD both explained stuff from the classic series themselves (hence Resurrection Of The Daleks suddenly making sense, when you throw the time war in..Android duplicate assassins..) The one specific example you bring up has already been dealt with though...he says in the episode itself he saves them for now. He dies trying. He may have bought them literally years, they may die of old age, or they may be grabbed by the cyberman tomorrow or in fifty years. Did he rescue the ship? Why? It’s full of cybermen. But he bought their life today, because that’s the best he could do.
I am curious what you think is left hanging from the Matt Smith era, it all seems so...wrapped up, but some it’s in the details. Me..well I could have enjoyed much much more with the papal mainframe and it’s pope, that was delightful. But it still all made sense.
I would be very surprised if anyone can think of a writer or script editor that surpassed Moffat. But then we are at ground zero. Fandom even forgives JNT now I hear.
It's unlikely that he would have many encounters with people who jumped into the remains of a Time Lord, especially given that the Time Lords prohibited the very jaunting-around-in-time-and-space that only renegades like the Doctor engaged in. I got the impression that what Clara did on Trenzalore was unique, even to Time Lords.
Several episodes show him trying to figure out what she is:
In "The Rings of Akheten", the Doctor goes back in time and observes Clara's entire history.
In "Hide", the whole reason they're at the house is so the Doctor can ask Emma Grayling to user her empathic ability to determine what Clara is.
In "Journey to the Center of the TARDIS", the Doctor is teaching her to pilot the TARDIS as a means of determining what she is, noticing that the TARDIS is reacting to her. During this episode, he also directly confronts her about what she is.
Maybe he does, but that doesn't tell him who made her and for what purpose. It's not like the Time Lords are the only time-traveling race in Doctor Who.
Wimp! Captain Jack died thousands of times.
We see her die twice. She is elsewhere in his timstream to, and as he gets closer to the Trenzalore event, he ‘remembers’ it more. It’s also nothing like River, because each Clara is a separate entity. He’s not meeting the same girl over and over, he’s seeing the same face, name, personality etc, over and over, throughout time and space. He investigates, and can’t find her (girl on the swings short) then, when he is found by her (Missy and the I.T support...) and investigates, he finds...nothing extraordinary. There’s no reason behind events that require a reason. Until there is of course, but it’s not something ‘normal’ even by Doctor standards. First, it’s the actions of another Time Lord, and all of those are time-locked from his perspective, that Time Lord is the Master...who is now a girl. While Moffat establishes that’s a thing, it doesn’t seem to be a thing for the Master (because it isn’t, until a future Doctor who cannot exist without Clara’s intervention, and Missy, make it happen.) and all of this happening by pieces being moved by players from a future that only comes into existence because the pieces were moved. Eleven dies on Trenzalore, Twelve doesn’t exist without Clara (a) fixing his timestream...but she’s only there because he sought her out in the first place because she’s in his timestream and (b) changing the history of the Time War with the Doctors and the Moment...it’s her who reawakens the Doctor in the Warrior (see a again) and (c) gets that message through the crack for the extra cycle (again, see a again for how she’s there) yes, like River, she’s a paradox, but unlike River, she’s a constant bootstrap Paradox, especially through the twisted path involving prophecies and Missy.
She is, very literally, impossible, from every perspective the Doctor has, until she literally makes herself possible...unknowingly. In the olden days we would have called her a Daughter Of Time probably. (Artefacts that loop as bootstrap paradoxes are believed to be made by time herself, to paraphrase something from the New Adventures.
She’s a way more complex event than River or even Bad Wolf, because of how close she is to Doctors existence, and those Time changing events. River, he can figure out most of pretty much right away, and River herself knows outright what she is and who. It’s just information he doesn’t have. No one, including Clara, knows how Clara works, until after Clara herself makes the event happen with no foreknowledge or intent. Missy might know, having a hand in it, but also, can’t know, because without Clara there is no Missy incarnation. Gallifrey itself is part of the predestination...no Clara, no Gallifrey Falls No More, no new regen cycle, no Twelth Doctor and therefore no Missy on the Mondas ship, therefore no Missy, No Clara in the Doctors Time Stream...and loop. With a little squiggle to point out Gallifrey will probably now have the sense to not touch post Raven Clara.
It’s bonkers, because it’s literally impossible.
Clara is Faction Paradox xD
I can't say I would be in the JNT camp now.. Yes is he likeable? sure.. Probably a nice guy? yea I can say based on interviews people generally liked him. But I still think he was mainly the reason the show withered and with the controller of BBC at the time trying to axe the show, the low budget and lack of faith in the concept, and the advent of Star Trek TNG coming on Brit TVs, it really made it easy for the show to be canceled. my beef is with the choice of going for unlikeable Colin Baker, versus a courageous Colin baker. I liked when he finally became that version of the Doctor, but I think he would have come off better a cowardly Doctor first, then courageous, that would have been much better with Colin's range and depth. Simpering kitten becomes Galactic hero, now that is a great way to have done the doctor, and to date has never been tried.. (maybe in some minor insignificant fashion, but as an introduction to a new doctor who is a coward first? Never been done). I know, the doctor says never cowardly in his new (supposedly old) personal Mantra, but I'm not talking out of lack of bravery, but more mixed up from the regeneration and causes him to relive constantly the deaths of all his companions and allies, forcing him tremendous fear and head pains.. something culminates in him realigning and becoming finally a hero when things get too bad to not take a stand. Now to me, had the writers and JNT had more vision and faith in Colin and not dead set on this unlikeable aspect right out the gate with Colin Choking his companion? seriously?? talk about getting off on the wrong foot for all the wrong reasons and wrong expectations of the shock factor bringing new focus to the show.. There was a better way. If budget was an issue, then set the Doctor back on Earth with a 90s style U.N.I.T. 2.0 and they could have grounded Colin for a time to bank money for those outer spacey episodes.. I mean, there are all the excuses in the world that can explain why each option I have chosen couldn't work for this reason or that, but the fact remains in history, the direction he took led down the road to the show's eventual cancellation and of course there's the 6th Doctor riding an exercise bike just like Colin with Mel.. or the Rani as Mel. So much camp! To think Picard was fighting the Borg by this point on the Telli!
Have I forgiven JNT? Maybe... I can forgive someone for incompetence.. sure, I guess.
The Faction weaponizing Claras to use against the Enemy...
Just imagine how many Claras there are in the City of the Saved.
Clara and Me meeting Miles' original Sabbath would be amazing, before he became an ersatz Master.
This was on BBC and included in the blu-ray releases. This is as close to Amy worrying about losing her baby as Moffat got. This phone call however, was never referenced in the show proper though.
wait a minute.. you just reminded me of something.. Why wouldn't the 12th Doctor let Clara go to her fate?? This is what perplexed me about the writing of Moffat. The McGuffin was Clara and the whole Time lord thing.. but in reality, the 11th doctor knew Clara had jumped into his time stream from his death, which was way way way into the future, so she could help him against the great intelligence and thus would die in every timeline as she interacted with the Doctor.. becoming the impossible girl.. hence the spaceship death, and Victorian death, and so on.. so why couldn't he just let her go, and if Jenna wanted to stay on a bit longer, they could have started with a whole new version set in some distant future earth and pick up from there.. instead we got Me, and the Clara round about TARDIS storyline that ended there with no epilogue or spin off series to carry on in that storyline. I'm hoping the comics will tackle it and BF at some point.. But the Impossible girl sets the stage that Clara can reappear with no memory of the Doctor and yet be his companion again.. so it's kinda scary if you ask me..
She’s the last Clara, the one he pulled out of his own Time Stream, who prevented his Death on Trenzalore (meaning there was no time stream for her to jump into, meaning they should never meet, meaning...how did she get there? See. She’s a paradox twice over, minimum.) that’s why he saved her. Because he has to do for her what she did for him, essentially speaking. I do t think a Clara and Me spin off would work tbh.
He wanted to leave after the Colin thing, but the BBC would have axed the show if there was no one to run it. (and the whole thing..including grumpy doctor who becomes likeable, with production team staying on to ensure the shows continuation, repeats itself with Capaldi. There’s even an Anniversary involved, with the next Doctor being announced as part of that.)
I am ambivalent to be honest, all I know is, there’s less rocks with his name on now than there was twenty years ago. I think people generally like Philip Segal again too.
Oh and TNG was in its Code of Honor phase when Colin was written out, if that. Picard didn’t fight the Borg until Fenric had been dealt with, and the Cream Of Scotland Yard had gone cold. XD
So I can see the parallel with the JNT era now with Capaldi and This new direction meant to reinvigorate the series.. History does seem to be repeating itself.
I remember that, and I remember thinking that the back half of series 6 would be really interesting, with the Doctor, Amy, and Rory hunting down Madame Kovarian in a desperate quest through time and space to recover baby Melody, and did the little girl who regenerated at the end of "Day of the Moon" have some connection, which would imply that, in some fashion, the quest to recover the baby failed? (I guess we're supposed to infer that she's somehow Melody, and at some point she regenerates again into Mels.) But that wasn't what Moffat wanted to do, he resolved the issue with essentially a long joke and everyone throwing their hands up in the air and saying, "This is dumb and makes no sense, but we'll roll with it and never speak of it again." The implications of Moffat's ideas are more interesting than the execution of the ideas that interests him.
For an example, "Asylum of the Daleks" has some fascinating implications that would change the whole Daleks dynamic -- the Daleks can weaponize their nanites and infect entire planetary biomes to create planets of humanoid Daleks -- but Moffat's more interested in treating his whole setting as a throwaway so he can deal with Amy and Rory's relationship issues.
That also brings up the wiping of the time lords, the Doctor and the TARDIS from the Dalek Database, thereby making them oblivious to the Doctor going forward.. So Why did they recognize Capaldi's Doctor? Maybe because he went back into the past to the Movellan/Dalek War to thwart Bill's Lesbian Watery out of spacey lover?? IDK.. They never really touched on the Dalek Database thing again.. and likewise.. Why couldn't the Doctor pop Dalek Clara out of time again to use her against the daleks like they did on Asylum.. seems like an easy way to get the job done knowing there's a human minded Dalek who can hack their entire psychic and computer network across subspace.
Yeah, I've seen that clip before and, if anything, I find it all the more infuriating that the most interesting part of that whole situation was regulated to a "prequel" video seen only on home media.
All of that would've been so much more interesting than what we got with "Let's Kill Hitler" and "The Wedding of River Song." Like you said, Moffat's ideas are more interesting in concept but are poorly handled in execution, either because of lack of interest in the core concept or because he's interested in something entirely different that doesn't connect with the audiences...because of the lack of connection to the core concept.
I hadn't thought about that possibility but then I've been so very wary of the Daleks for years, which is funny considering "Asylum of the Daleks" is one of my favorite modern Dalek stories, although I was more interested the situation going on with Oswin.
Time of the Doctor. The Daleks have their full knowledge of the Doctor restored after they assimilate Tasha Lem, as stated in dialogue.
