MLB Season Discussion - 2013

[Scout101]

Ha, seems they forgot to tell him he was retiring when the press asked him about it, as he intends to still look for another job managing next season.

All that said, his team has spent a lot of money and not gotten much for it lately, so makes sense to fire him. And as this was kinda the idea when they hired Sandberg, may as well see what they've got for a month or so before going into the offseason. He won't be tied to the win-loss, as not a ton he can do to shake it up now, but if they like his style, he gets to stay.

And, of course, Philly is known for its class

 

[Pondwater]

Tough break. He just earned his 1,000th win Monday night. If that means anything.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

And, of course, Philly is known for its class

Hey, don't hold the fans against the firing. I think the general consensus is Manuel is a nice guy, not a great manager, but manager isn't really all that important to baseball and he wasn't the problem with the team. I'm indifferent to the firing. You can't fire an entire team, though.

 

[Timby]

You can't fire an entire team, though.

No, but you can fire the guy who's systematically turned it from a pennant contender to an utter joke over the past several years.

Manuel's basically blameless for this year and last, given the shitstorm rosters he's been given. Ben fuckin' Revere and Michael Young are not exactly valuable pieces, and the Phillies' roster and farm system are so brutal that they're an 85 - 90-loss team for probably the next two years at least -- they need a shortstop, third baseman, first baseman, center fielder, right fielder, catcher, two starters and three bullpen arms, essentially.

I love the criticisms that Manuel didn't create enough of a "clubhouse presence." How is that determined? Number of pizzas ordered? Talking in the third person? Expensive contracts? And Rube couldn't even sack up and actually call it a firing. Just shameful.

Most galling is that tonight was the night the Phillies were going to honor Manuel for winning his 1,000th game as the team's manager. Instead, nope, clean out your office. In the words of Star-Kist ... sorry, Charlie.

Edit: Fun fact: Chip Kelly has not coached a regular-season game in the NFL and is already the second-longest-tenured head coach in Philadelphia.

 

[R. Star]

I get the feeling the Cubs are going to regret not giving Sandberg the job.

 

[Use of Time]

At this point the Braves are actively trolling the Nationals. Bryce gets pegged twice tonight and J-Up walks off. Ray Knight was about to lose his mind during the post game show on "Nats X-tra." He wants retribution and he wants Justin Upton's head on a platter. He also calls the Braves fans classless for applauding the beaning of Bryce. I'm sure the Nationals faithful would be disgusted if Upton were to take a fastball between the shoulder blades.

People ask me how the Nationals win 98 some games last year and then play around .500 baseball this year. I have no answer. Davey Johnson was handed the keys to a Lexus only to leave it crashed and burning in a ditch. Blows my mind. It is the same damn team as last year.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I get the feeling the Cubs are going to regret not giving Sandberg the job.

The Cubs knew there would be a few years of bad times. I'm not sure they wanted to do that to Ryno.

 

[Timby]

I get the feeling the Cubs are going to regret not giving Sandberg the job.

Not at all. If you look at Sandberg's track record as a minor-league manager, he loves bunts. Not just bunts to move runners over, bunts in general. In essence, he loves giving up outs, which is the antithesis of the philosophy espoused by Epstein and Hoyer, who remember that you only get 27 of them, and each one is precious. Sandberg simply didn't fit with the organizational philosophy.

In any event, Sandberg has been up for a bunch of big-league jobs and whiffed hard in his interviews; he isn't all that hot of a managerial prospect at this point. I'll never understand the continued hand-wringing by Cubs fans about him being passed over for Sveum (who is clearly a stopgap manager).

 

[Use of Time]

So what is the over/under on Justin Upton wearing a Strasburg fastball tonight? Please God just don't let anyone get hurt.

 

[Timby]

So what is the over/under on Justin Upton wearing a Strasburg fastball tonight?

That, uh, isn't how over / under works.

 

[Use of Time]

So what is the over/under on Justin Upton wearing a Strasburg fastball tonight?

That, uh, isn't how over / under works.

Well, Nationals fans are wanting him to get hit every at bat so we could set it at two as long as Stras only gets a warning on the first one.

 

[SmoothieX]

You can't fire an entire team, though.

No, but you can fire the guy who's systematically turned it from a pennant contender to an utter joke over the past several years.

Manuel's basically blameless for this year and last, given the shitstorm rosters he's been given. Ben fuckin' Revere and Michael Young are not exactly valuable pieces, and the Phillies' roster and farm system are so brutal that they're an 85 - 90-loss team for probably the next two years at least -- they need a shortstop, third baseman, first baseman, center fielder, right fielder, catcher, two starters and three bullpen arms, essentially.

I love the criticisms that Manuel didn't create enough of a "clubhouse presence." How is that determined? Number of pizzas ordered? Talking in the third person? Expensive contracts? And Rube couldn't even sack up and actually call it a firing. Just shameful.

Most galling is that tonight was the night the Phillies were going to honor Manuel for winning his 1,000th game as the team's manager. Instead, nope, clean out your office. In the words of Star-Kist ... sorry, Charlie.

Edit: Fun fact: Chip Kelly has not coached a regular-season game in the NFL and is already the second-longest-tenured head coach in Philadelphia.

The Phillies are the NL Yankees - aging players with bloated, long term contracts and a depleted farm system.

I don't see the rationale for canning Manuel with weeks left in a lost season. The guy has had a bunch of good years there with a title thrown in. Unless this is an on the job audition for Sandberg, they could have just waited until the day after the season to wack him.

 

[Timby]

The Phillies are the NL Yankees - aging players with bloated, long term contracts and a depleted farm system.

I don't see the rationale for canning Manuel with weeks left in a lost season. The guy has had a bunch of good years there with a title thrown in. Unless this is an on the job audition for Sandberg, they could have just waited until the day after the season to wack him.

The difference between the Yankees and the Phillies is that the Yankees' woes are largely due to the business guys like Levine running the show, and Hal Steinbrenner's Project 189 madness. The Phillies' problem is that a certifiable lunatic who once said "I don't care about walks" is in charge of their front office.

Manuel wasn't even under contract after this season, which makes the firing all the more bizarre.

 

[Use of Time]

Stras drills Upton, Upton smiles and takes his base. No brawl. The Nationals can rest easy knowing that Harper is protected. Bryce is not playing tonight either. Baseball is hilarious.

 

[R. Star]

I get the feeling the Cubs are going to regret not giving Sandberg the job.

Not at all. If you look at Sandberg's track record as a minor-league manager, he loves bunts. Not just bunts to move runners over, bunts in general. In essence, he loves giving up outs, which is the antithesis of the philosophy espoused by Epstein and Hoyer, who remember that you only get 27 of them, and each one is precious. Sandberg simply didn't fit with the organizational philosophy.

In any event, Sandberg has been up for a bunch of big-league jobs and whiffed hard in his interviews; he isn't all that hot of a managerial prospect at this point. I'll never understand the continued hand-wringing by Cubs fans about him being passed over for Sveum (who is clearly a stopgap manager).

You're right about Sveum being a stopgap manager. I never was that impressed with him, but I guess at least he's treading water however barely. You've valid points about Sandberg not being what Epstein wants, though my main source of hand wringing is hey... if we're going to have a guy in there losing, it may as well be somebody the fans like. If nothing else, the guy deserves a chance, and it's not a big gamble since the club isn't competing anyways.

What's done is done though, and I hope Ryno does well for the Phillies.

 

[Timby]

News: Starlin Castro pulled from yet another game for being a lazy mental midget, sky blue, water wet.

Views: Six more years.

 

[R. Star]

Moral of the story: Let the players go through arbitration negotiations even after a good year. There's a good reason it takes a player six years before they can become a free agent. Consistency is good before offering a long term contract.

 

[Timby]

Moral of the story: Let the players go through arbitration negotiations even after a good year.

This really isn't true in many cases. When a player is absolutely lights-out, like Giancarlo Stanton or Albert Pujols, then, yes, you absolutely get a long-term deal in place, because otherwise you're going to get taken to the cleaners as soon as the player is arb-eligible.

The problem with the Castro deal was that a ten-second look at his peripherals would have told you that his offense is entirely BABIP-dependent, and that combined with his allergy to walks means that he's barely league-average. Now that his BABIP has fallen back down to a reasonable level (.292, last I checked), he's been exposed. That 71 OPS+ makes me physically ill every time I compare that to his contract.

I said it years ago and I'll say it again: Hendry was a goddamned moron for not selling high on him. It's not like every other previously "untouchable" Cubs prospect (Vitters, Stewart, Patterson, Pie) didn't flame out into total dogshit.

 

[SmoothieX]

The steaming mess my dog just made takes exception to that.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The Phillies are the NL Yankees - aging players with bloated, long term contracts and a depleted farm system.

I don't see the rationale for canning Manuel with weeks left in a lost season. The guy has had a bunch of good years there with a title thrown in. Unless this is an on the job audition for Sandberg, they could have just waited until the day after the season to wack him.

The difference between the Yankees and the Phillies is that the Yankees' woes are largely due to the business guys like Levine running the show, and Hal Steinbrenner's Project 189 madness. The Phillies' problem is that a certifiable lunatic who once said "I don't care about walks" is in charge of their front office.

Manuel wasn't even under contract after this season, which makes the firing all the more bizarre.

All absolutely true. However, I do think it's more than Amaro. I think the entire organization has problems that are symbolized by that hiring and it isn't as simple as replacing him.

Organization, not Manual, is the reason the reason the Phillies were a bad team

The easy course of action is to call for the ouster of Amaro, who effectively painted himself with a well-deserved bull's-eye by dispatching Manuel. But firing the GM won't do a thing if the philosophy that resulted in his hiring remains the same. When the Phillies traded Lee before acquiring Roy Halladay, it was a panicky move indicative of a franchise not yet comfortable with life as a big-revenue power player. Four years later, that sensibility remains in an environment where contracts sometimes seem as if they are awarded as much for patronage as for merit, where players' past performances are valued more than their future projections, where exhaustive data and proven trends are ignored because of an unwillingness to do things in way that is different from the way they have always been done.

Ever since the Phillies said goodbye to Pat Gillick and the significant power bequeathed to him, the organization's trajectory has looked suspiciously like those often produced by that hideous beast we call bureaucracy, where progressive mindsets and the will to challenge status quos are steamrolled by the slow plod of inertia along the path of least resistance. The Phillies are a fossilized dinosaur inside a glacier, content to watch the rest of civilization drift away, convinced that the space between is growing at a manageable pace. Except the pace is not manageable, because progress is exponential. As the Phillies wait for the next great thaw, an organization such as the Rays busies itself making decisions that, while difficult, are necessary to engender new growth. They rebuild their bullpen every season at a fraction of the amount the Phillies spend on theirs. They buy at the bottom of the market and sell at the top. They do not express bewilderment at the declining performance and injuries typical of veterans. They make the changes that allow them to field a team that comes as close to reaching their model of success as their resources afford.

Yesterday, Charlie Manuel exited his office for the last time, disappearing down a tunnel that spilled out into the fading August light and the world that lies beyond Citizens Bank Park.

He was the lucky one.