Mirror,Mirror
- Thread starter KirkSpockTOSFan
- Start date
Yeah, no prob! I hope you're enjoying it.
I've been checking our bluray sets at one ep per day and arrived at this one today. What a great pleasure to see it again, and the bluray is eyepoppingly gorgeous.
I was struck by what a great vehicle it is for the entire cast -- and they still managed to have one of the best guest stars ever. This episode just has everything.
I was struck by what a great vehicle it is for the entire cast -- and they still managed to have one of the best guest stars ever. This episode just has everything.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
the AGONY BOOTH being one the most interesting devices ever to show up on a STAR TREK episode. I bet a young Dick Cheney got many ideas after seeing this episode.
Rob
Rob
I just watched this again. I loved it as much as I always have, but this time when it was over I couldn't help but feel like the characterization of Mirror Spock was a bit off. I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in another recent thread about mirror universe characters, but I want to mostly focus on Mirror Spock, so I stuck it here. I don't want to get into a big debate about whether the mirror episode versions of DS9 made sense, so let's stick to those in the original series here.
Everyone else that we saw fleshed out in the mirror universe seemed to make a lot of sense as a mirror version of the character we know. We know from earlier episodes that Sulu is gentle, friendly, careful/healthy, and romantic (this is evident from the way he talks to other crew members and his love of botany, exercise, and swashbuckling), so it would make sense that his mirror universe counterpart would be a violent, reckless, ruthless, power hungry potential rapist.
We know that Chekov is kind, proud, and loyal (this is evident, for example, from the way he tries to defend the Captain's honour in "The Trouble with Tribbles" and his constant boasting about Russia), so it makes sense that his mirror universe counterpart would be a spineless, conniving sadist who would hire henchmen who don't trust him to help him overthrow Kirk.
We know that Captain Kirk is generally calm, dignified, thoughtful, disciplined, sensible, and always willing to compromise/negotiate, so it makes sense that his mirror universe counterpart would be a violent, irrational brute who raves about power and thinks anyone who has something he wants should either be forced to give it up or bought through bribery.
But what difference is there between Mirror Spock and the regular Spock in terms of personality? The only reasons Spock ever does anything that regular Spock wouldn't do are because of the conditions of his society. Yes, one can't imagine regular Spock punishing someone with an agonizer or threatening to kill a regular crew member, but that's only because such behaviour is commonplace in his society. It's not because he's sadistic. It has nothing to do with personality. He also claims to like the Captain.
If he is a true twisted mirror image of Spock, shouldn't he be completely lacking control of his emotions? Shouldn't he be loud, illogical, and perhaps even obnoxious? Shouldn't he resent Captain Kirk instead of respect him and not want him to die? And if you want to get really literal about opposites, shouldn't he agree with everything McCoy says?
I think this is a big oversight on the part of the writers. They made Mirror Spock pretty much the same as regular Spock personality-wise.
I guess this is because that was the only way they could think of solving the problem of how to get the regular crew back to their world. Based on what the other characterizations suggest about mirror universe personalities, Spock should be just as dangerous and psychotic as the rest of the crew. If he was, however, there's no way regular Kirk could have talked him into letting the regular crew go back to their world, and no way he would put up with Kirk's mercy towards the Halkans.
I can still enjoy "Mirror, Mirror" despite what I now perceive as a hole in it, but as I reflect on it, I can't help but think there's something very illogical about Mirror Spock. Can anyone see anything significantly different between he and regular Spock besides his goatee and uniform?
Everyone else that we saw fleshed out in the mirror universe seemed to make a lot of sense as a mirror version of the character we know. We know from earlier episodes that Sulu is gentle, friendly, careful/healthy, and romantic (this is evident from the way he talks to other crew members and his love of botany, exercise, and swashbuckling), so it would make sense that his mirror universe counterpart would be a violent, reckless, ruthless, power hungry potential rapist.
We know that Chekov is kind, proud, and loyal (this is evident, for example, from the way he tries to defend the Captain's honour in "The Trouble with Tribbles" and his constant boasting about Russia), so it makes sense that his mirror universe counterpart would be a spineless, conniving sadist who would hire henchmen who don't trust him to help him overthrow Kirk.
We know that Captain Kirk is generally calm, dignified, thoughtful, disciplined, sensible, and always willing to compromise/negotiate, so it makes sense that his mirror universe counterpart would be a violent, irrational brute who raves about power and thinks anyone who has something he wants should either be forced to give it up or bought through bribery.
But what difference is there between Mirror Spock and the regular Spock in terms of personality? The only reasons Spock ever does anything that regular Spock wouldn't do are because of the conditions of his society. Yes, one can't imagine regular Spock punishing someone with an agonizer or threatening to kill a regular crew member, but that's only because such behaviour is commonplace in his society. It's not because he's sadistic. It has nothing to do with personality. He also claims to like the Captain.
If he is a true twisted mirror image of Spock, shouldn't he be completely lacking control of his emotions? Shouldn't he be loud, illogical, and perhaps even obnoxious? Shouldn't he resent Captain Kirk instead of respect him and not want him to die? And if you want to get really literal about opposites, shouldn't he agree with everything McCoy says?
I think this is a big oversight on the part of the writers. They made Mirror Spock pretty much the same as regular Spock personality-wise. I guess this is because that was the only way they could think of solving the problem of how to get the regular crew back to their world. Based on what the other characterizations suggest about mirror universe personalities, Spock should be just as dangerous and psychotic as the rest of the crew. If he was, however, there's no way regular Kirk could have talked him into letting the regular crew go back to their world, and no way he would put up with Kirk's mercy towards the Halkans.
I can still enjoy "Mirror, Mirror" despite what I now perceive as a hole in it, but as I reflect on it, I can't help but think there's something very illogical about Mirror Spock. Can anyone see anything significantly different between he and regular Spock besides his goatee and uniform?
Uh... what? You are arguing that the MU versions are meant to be the polar opposites without any reason for it? 
That makes no sense.
The way you describe them, one would have to conclude that Mirror Spock is the only one whose characterization makes any sense, and that the hole in the episode is the characterization of everyone else in the MU.
I've never seen it like that, though. I can see Kirk, Sulu or Chekov developing that way in the MU only because the circumstances and environment are different and their upbringing and experiences were completely different. For instance, Kirk is still a strong and resourceful leader, but he lacks the morality of the prime universe Kirk - or rather, he was born and grew up in a world with a completely different ethics, the "barbarian" ones as Spock calls them, and Mirror Kirk's violent nature is similar to Kirk's animalistic side as seen in "The Enemy Within". Mirror Sulu isn't irrational nor reckless, he is scheming and ambitious - because these are the qualities favored by the Terran Empire and that's what you need to be in dog-eat-dog world that their society is. The other Sulu was a loyal man quietly doing his job, this one has nobody and nothing to feel loyalty or friendship to, since everyone is out of themselves. He has a crush on Uhura just like his counterpart in the other universe, but is a lot more aggressive about it - where the prime universe Sulu only showed his feelings when he was 'under the influence' and that by swashbuckling and trying to play the romantic role of her knight ("I'll protect you, fair lady"), Mirror Sulu is crude and sexually aggressive, because that's the way of the Terran Empire, in a world where it's normal for the captain to have his personal concubine and where everyone is taking what they want by force, we can be sure that they don't have concepts such as romance or chivalry.
As for Mirror Spock, he is open and frank and has his own sense of honor and duty just like the other Spock, but since his duty is to the Empire, it includes threatening people, torturing them for a slightest offense, forcing mind-melds, and possibly killing Kirk if these happen to be his orders, even though he is honest enough to warn him about it. He also has his Vulcan bodyguards and makes it clear to Kirk that he can be a dangerous enemy. He might be a better person than MU Kirk, Sulu or Chekov, but he was not an innocent who couldn't survive in the MU, he was ruthless enough to get by.
That makes no sense.Um... that's exactly why his characterization makes sense more than any other. Because the only thing that makes a difference between the characters in the prime universe and the so-called Mirror Universe are the conditions of the society. This is what shaped the MU versions into who they are. The whole nature vs nurture thing.
The way you describe them, one would have to conclude that Mirror Spock is the only one whose characterization makes any sense, and that the hole in the episode is the characterization of everyone else in the MU.
I've never seen it like that, though. I can see Kirk, Sulu or Chekov developing that way in the MU only because the circumstances and environment are different and their upbringing and experiences were completely different. For instance, Kirk is still a strong and resourceful leader, but he lacks the morality of the prime universe Kirk - or rather, he was born and grew up in a world with a completely different ethics, the "barbarian" ones as Spock calls them, and Mirror Kirk's violent nature is similar to Kirk's animalistic side as seen in "The Enemy Within". Mirror Sulu isn't irrational nor reckless, he is scheming and ambitious - because these are the qualities favored by the Terran Empire and that's what you need to be in dog-eat-dog world that their society is. The other Sulu was a loyal man quietly doing his job, this one has nobody and nothing to feel loyalty or friendship to, since everyone is out of themselves. He has a crush on Uhura just like his counterpart in the other universe, but is a lot more aggressive about it - where the prime universe Sulu only showed his feelings when he was 'under the influence' and that by swashbuckling and trying to play the romantic role of her knight ("I'll protect you, fair lady"), Mirror Sulu is crude and sexually aggressive, because that's the way of the Terran Empire, in a world where it's normal for the captain to have his personal concubine and where everyone is taking what they want by force, we can be sure that they don't have concepts such as romance or chivalry.
As for Mirror Spock, he is open and frank and has his own sense of honor and duty just like the other Spock, but since his duty is to the Empire, it includes threatening people, torturing them for a slightest offense, forcing mind-melds, and possibly killing Kirk if these happen to be his orders, even though he is honest enough to warn him about it. He also has his Vulcan bodyguards and makes it clear to Kirk that he can be a dangerous enemy. He might be a better person than MU Kirk, Sulu or Chekov, but he was not an innocent who couldn't survive in the MU, he was ruthless enough to get by.
I had a feeling this might lead to some analysis of whether nature or nurture is to blame for how the characters are different. Clearly you've taken the side of nurture, but the way I saw it when watching the episode, Mirror Sulu, Chekov, and Kirk seemed to be different, while Mirror Spock simply seemed to act different. Your rationalization for how Mirror Sulu, Chekov, and Kirk could have turned out the way they did makes sense, but it's not really demonstrated.
That's an intriguing idea. It sounds like the opposite of what I'm saying, but it's the same basic idea. I see an inconsistency in the episode because Mirror Spock seems the same as regular Spock, except shaped by his society to behave more viciously. Mirror Kirk, Sulu, and Chekov, however, just seemed too different from their counterparts for me to accept them as simply corrupted versions of those counterparts.
I suppose it would be expecting too much from the original series to flesh out the other mirror characters as much as Spock. Maybe if the mirror universe was a whole series or several episode arc, but with the time and creative constraints of the time, it wasn't possible, so I was left feeling like there was a divide between the depth of the mirror depiction of Spock's character and that of the other characters.
I can imagine how regular Spock could become like Mirror Spock in adjusting to different circumstances. He is the same guy, except in his actions. Sulu, Chekov, and Kirk, however, are just so strikingly different, it's hard to imagine these characters as we know them taking such a one eighty.
I got the idea of Sulu being reckless because of his scar and the way he let Uhura distract him. This is an issue for an entirely different debate, but I find it hard to buy that living in a more hostile society is enough to explain a person changing from expressing affection through chivalry in one world to doing it through attempted rape in another. That's a pretty big jump. Mirror Spock is willing to kill someone to advance in rank because killing to advance in rank is how his society works.
Let me put it this way, I thought if Mirror Kirk, Sulu, and Chekov had been like Mirror Spock, they would have been the same nice, polite guys they were in the regular univese, except they would be willing to try to kill someone to advance in rank, because that's how rank goes in the Empire. But they aren't just the same guys as the regular crew, doing more violent things because that's what's commonplace in their society. They are all wild-eyed maniacs who speak and think with more brutality than we've ever seen before.
That's an intriguing idea. It sounds like the opposite of what I'm saying, but it's the same basic idea. I see an inconsistency in the episode because Mirror Spock seems the same as regular Spock, except shaped by his society to behave more viciously. Mirror Kirk, Sulu, and Chekov, however, just seemed too different from their counterparts for me to accept them as simply corrupted versions of those counterparts.
I suppose it would be expecting too much from the original series to flesh out the other mirror characters as much as Spock. Maybe if the mirror universe was a whole series or several episode arc, but with the time and creative constraints of the time, it wasn't possible, so I was left feeling like there was a divide between the depth of the mirror depiction of Spock's character and that of the other characters.
I can imagine how regular Spock could become like Mirror Spock in adjusting to different circumstances. He is the same guy, except in his actions. Sulu, Chekov, and Kirk, however, are just so strikingly different, it's hard to imagine these characters as we know them taking such a one eighty.
I got the idea of Sulu being reckless because of his scar and the way he let Uhura distract him. This is an issue for an entirely different debate, but I find it hard to buy that living in a more hostile society is enough to explain a person changing from expressing affection through chivalry in one world to doing it through attempted rape in another. That's a pretty big jump. Mirror Spock is willing to kill someone to advance in rank because killing to advance in rank is how his society works.
Let me put it this way, I thought if Mirror Kirk, Sulu, and Chekov had been like Mirror Spock, they would have been the same nice, polite guys they were in the regular univese, except they would be willing to try to kill someone to advance in rank, because that's how rank goes in the Empire. But they aren't just the same guys as the regular crew, doing more violent things because that's what's commonplace in their society. They are all wild-eyed maniacs who speak and think with more brutality than we've ever seen before.
But they're not the same people. If they were the same (say, if 'our' Kirk got transferred permanently into the MU and had to live there for several years) then yes, it would be unimaginable that they would be so different.
But that's not the case - the MU characters are completely different people, they just have the same genetics, but they were born and raised in a completely different world; they don't have any of the same memories, their consciousness is completely different, they were never the same (unlike, say, Tom and Will Riker, who were the same person for the first 26 years of their life.) It is pretty much like having an identical twin.
Mirror Mirror is one of my all time favorites although I do see one hole in the story and it does involve Spock. Mirror-Spock is as logical as his Prime Universe counterpart. At the end of the episode he logically concludes that they belong in their own universe. Well, why didn't Kirk tell him the truth early on what had happened so he could help them get back to their universe?
Yeah, it would have eliminated much of the story..but as with all things Trek the plot hole really doesn't bother me and I love the episode.
Yeah, it would have eliminated much of the story..but as with all things Trek the plot hole really doesn't bother me and I love the episode.
Probably because he couldn't predict how Mirror Spock would react, and because they were afraid that the Mirror folks would either kill them, or imprison and torture them for information about the other universe (say, if it has some nice powerful weapons and technology and how they could get their hands on it, etc.).
Very good point. I guess that does cover up the plot hole.
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