Miranda Class in the Dominion War.

[Dukhat]

Technically that's true of course. But the point that Ithekro and I are suggesting is that the old (possibly out of scale?) Excelsior model is being used as a "placeholder" for the actual Excelsior II in the same way that the KBoP model was used for as many as 4 similar models of various sizes that couldn't look exactly the same, and IIRC the battlecruiser was also used as a placeholder a time or two as well?

There’s a bit of a difference in these two examples. For the BoP, we are supposed to believe that there are several different classes of ship, at wildly different scales, that coincidentally happen to outwardly look exactly the same. (i.e. We are supposed to take what we see on screen literally.)

For your example of the Excelsiors, you are asking us to believe that one type of ship is not actually what we are seeing, and that instead we are supposed to be seeing a completely different design despite what our eyes are showing us on screen (if I’m understanding you correctly.)

Neither of these scenarios are very realistic, but they are both distinctly different in their approach.

Now your battlecruiser example has some merit (they used a K’T’inga in ENT for a Klingon ship from the 2150’s because the design John Eaves came up with wasn’t liked by the producers and there wasn’t time to make a CGI model for it.) However, nobody in charge said that we were supposed to pretend that it was that other ship, and subsequent showings of the episode /DVD/Bluray/HD remasterings still have not changed the ship to what was originally envisioned. Therefore we have to take what we saw at face value despite the fact that it doesn’t make sense.

 

[Ithekro]

Thing is the "new" PIC Excelsiors all have 4xxxx hull numbers, as do several TNG/DS9 era Excelsiors. So it might stand to reason that they are the same ships, just had some sort of hull refit in the 25 years or so since the end of the Dominion War.

 

[Dukhat]

Thing is the "new" PIC Excelsiors all have 4xxxx hull numbers, as do several TNG/DS9 era Excelsiors. So it might stand to reason that they are the same ships, just had some sort of hull refit in the 25 years or so since the end of the Dominion War.

Yes, that was one of the possibilities I cited. However, there are a few problems with this. The first being that the Excelsior IIs are quite larger than the original version. Also, the new Excelsior definitely isn’t the same ship as the old one, as the latter is in the Starfleet Museum and Starfleet isn’t in the habit of giving the name of the class ship to a later ship of the same class.

 

[ED-209]

Was the different BoP classes thing ever stated on screen or just fans trying to explain bad scaling away?

 

[Dukhat]

Was the different BoP classes thing ever stated on screen or just fans trying to explain bad scaling away?

There were two class names given on-screen for the BoPs: K'Vort and B'Rel. And while both fans and some official publications have taken those two names to mean that the former is the larger version and the latter is the smaller one, there has been no actual confirmation on-screen that this is the case.

There was also a 'D12' designation for Lursa & B'etor's BoP in Star Trek: Generations, but there's also no indication of scale for it, unless it's the same ship they were using in DS9 when they rendezvoused with a runabout, in which case it was about the same size as Kruge's BoP in TSFS:

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season1/103-past-prologue/prologue182.jpg

Of course, when we have both this:

https://movies.trekcore.com/gallery...1/chapter-10/st-tsfs-remaster-bluray-1131.jpg

And this:

https://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season3/3x10/the_defector_hd_364.jpg

There's quite obviously a blatant difference in scale going on, because there wasn't a budget to build a new large Klingon ship for that episode, or "Yesterday's Enterprise" when we see the same large BoPs as the K'Vort class (which also showed a smaller scout ship BoP in the same episode but with no class name.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

For your example of the Excelsiors, you are asking us to believe that one type of ship is not actually what we are seeing, and that instead we are supposed to be seeing a completely different design despite what our eyes are showing us on screen (if I’m understanding you correctly.)

Yes because there are -- as with the KBoP -- several occasions in TNG (mostly via recycled footage) that show an Excelsior that is narrower and shallower than the Galaxy -- but about the same apparent length. This is consistent with the Excelsior II's stated length of 588m (~92% of the typical length of the Galaxy), but less so for the ~467m standard Excelsior (73% of typical length of the Galaxy). I'd also point out that the length and different nacelles are about the only differences between the two... discounting that either the TOS!Connie, the Connie-Refit and the Discoprise look less like the same design that the Excelsior and Excelsior II and they're supposed to be the same thing!

 

[Unicron]

Was the different BoP classes thing ever stated on screen or just fans trying to explain bad scaling away?

As Dukhat mentions, there are two class name drops in TNG - the K'Vort is name dropped in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and called a battlecruiser, which is slower than the YE Galaxy but apparently dangerous in numbers. The name would later be referenced again (I want to say on DS9, but I don't recall exactly) making it canon to the normal timeline. There was a new Klingon ship that had been kitbashed as a possibility for YE but then never actually filmed, and the only available models were the D7 and the BOP. It would have been rather cool, IMO, to see the YE D face off against 3 Vor'Chas but that model wasn't built yet.

Then in "Rascals", the Ferengi-controlled BOPs are described as being B'rel class. The battle is of course stock footage from YE, so just going by that episode there's not much of a physical difference between the two.

Interestingly, the FASA Trek RPG did use several distinct BOP classes, maybe in recognition of scaling issues and maybe just to pad out the Klingon and Romulan fleets more. The Romulans designed the original S-11 scout type model as a successor to their older Bird of Prey cruiser, and traded some hulls to the Klingons as part of several technology exchanges. They also got some D7 hulls and transports, in a nod to the Romulans using such vessels in "The Enterprise Incident."

The Klingons were not supposed to modify the scouts (as K-22s) separately under the terms of the exchange treaty, aside from fitting them with Klingon systems, but they liked the scout so much they decided to produce upscaled model on a cruiser (the D-32 Z'Gavva, Stronger Bird) scale and then a frigate scale (the L-42 Z'Gavasta, Great Bird). The frigates lost the landing capability due to their larger mass, but carried much heavier firepower. Six disruptors and four torpedo launchers on the B model. All of the variants look very similar on an exterior level but their internal designs are fundamentally different.

The Romulans were less than pleased when they saw larger Klingon variants in service, so they retaliated by building their own copies of the frigate model.

 

[Dukhat]

Yes because there are -- as with the KBoP -- several occasions in TNG (mostly via recycled footage) that show an Excelsior that is narrower and shallower than the Galaxy -- but about the same apparent length. This is consistent with the Excelsior II's stated length of 588m (~92% of the typical length of the Galaxy), but less so for the ~467m standard Excelsior (73% of typical length of the Galaxy). I'd also point out that the length and different nacelles are about the only differences between the two... discounting that either the TOS!Connie, the Connie-Refit and the Discoprise look less like the same design that the Excelsior and Excelsior II and they're supposed to be the same thing!

The same could be said for the Defiant, Oberth, Delta Flyer, and a multitude of other vessels, and nobody is saying that they are all different classes (or worse, a different design than what our eyes are clearly showing us.) That’s only been done for the BoP because of its clear intent of the model being used out-of-scale to its original dimensions.

 

[Deks]

Yes, that was one of the possibilities I cited. However, there are a few problems with this. The first being that the Excelsior IIs are quite larger than the original version. Also, the new Excelsior definitely isn’t the same ship as the old one, as the latter is in the Starfleet Museum and Starfleet isn’t in the habit of giving the name of the class ship to a later ship of the same class.

I don't think the Excelsior II is that much larger than the original.
The Obena class (as seen in Lower Decks) seems like a hull modification of the Excelsior class that SF did for the older Excelsiors to give them an intermediary upgrade prior to the Excelsior II upgrade.

If you recall, the TOS Constitution class was somewhat smaller than the refitted version... so upscaling an existing ship (even by a larger amount) is not out of the picture.

The hull upgrade is just something that was probably due for the class in question. The Obena was a precursor to the Excelsior II full upgrade because SF was Sovereignising their ageing ships.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think the Excelsior II is that much larger than the original.
The Obena class (as seen in Lower Decks) seems like a hull modification of the Excelsior class that SF did for the older Excelsiors to give them an intermediary upgrade prior to the Excelsior II upgrade.

If you recall, the TOS Constitution class was somewhat smaller than the refitted version... so upscaling an existing ship (even by a larger amount) is not out of the picture.

The hull upgrade is just something that was probably due for the class in question. The Obena was a precursor to the Excelsior II full upgrade because SF was Sovereignising their ageing ships.

The official length of the Excelsior is 467 meters. The official length of the Excelsior II is 588 meters.

 

[Tim Walker]

Venture class

 

[Dukhat]

Venture class

So, a Miranda class with new nacelles, and its front and back cut out for no real good reason?

 

[XCV330]

So, a Miranda class with new nacelles, and its front and back cut out for no real good reason?

Assuming there's anything like Newtonian physics and the Venture was a cheap design to repurpose old hardware for a more martial mission, you could cut out areas that had previously been used for science missions or storage, like the hangar bay, etc and reduce your mass to give the ship more agility.

 

[Deks]

The official length of the Excelsior is 467 meters. The official length of the Excelsior II is 588 meters.

Which is a differential of 121 meters. Its still well in line with what a potential refit to a hull modification can do...especially for a starship class that's 120 years old at that point - but if the Obena was a precursor upgrade of the original Excelsior which was Sovereign-ized, then the Obena and Excelsior II would be similar in size (the Obena was just a late 24th century upgrade path for pre-existing Excelsiors in the fleet which would then be again upgraded to Excelsior II by the 25th century).

The NX-01 refit included a neck and whole secondary long with an addition of extension of the pylons... that in effect increased its overall size.

 

[Tim Walker]

Darin Wagner describes the transformation of a U.S. Navy submarine.

 

[publiusr]

IIRC, older jets were used as wild weasels.
The class of 96 stayed closer to home, we will say.

One potential kitbash that I had hoped to see was a Miranda-prise…a Reliant model in place of the 1/537 Refit saucer.

A perfect match of scale….and would square with the NX-01 refit to boot.

I would have lengthened the refit nacelles with sections of the Reliant nacelles…and chunked the roll bar.

The shortened Reliant nacelles go in place of the ST:TMP Vulcan shuttle sled…the torpedo bay atop it on a stalk…but with one wider torpedo bay in front and behind to keep scale.

 

[CaptChris42]

Which is a differential of 121 meters. Its still well in line with what a potential refit to a hull modification can do...especially for a starship class that's 120 years old at that point - but if the Obena was a precursor upgrade to the Excelsior which was Sovereign-ized, then the Obena and Excelsior II would be similar in Size.

The NX-01 refit included a neck and whole secondary long with an addition of extension of the pylons... that in effect increased its overall size.

Also leaving aside that the Excelsior often struggles to fit it's total deck heights in at a size under 520-530 metres - but that's generally by the by.

 

[Tim Walker]

Looking at different web sites....

It appears that, compared to the Miranda, a Soyuz had an enlarged tail section, which allowed the ship extra cargo space.

Actually, I think of a Soyuz as a Miranda variant. I imagine the Soyuz being used as a (relatively fast) freighter and troop transport. With some capacity for self defense.

Okay, what about all those other Mirandas? We see them accompany other ship classes into the big fleet battles.

Someone suggested that the Mirandas were turned into drones. And were used to draw fire away from the manned ships. How could that work? The enemy would soon learn that they couldn't afford to ignore the drones. Because the drones would do to their ships...what a bug ship did to the U.S.S. Odyssey.

 

[publiusr]

The Miranda model needed a bit of thickening of the saucer. The new 1/537 version is good for Reliant now.

 

[evilchumlee]

Someone suggested that the Mirandas were turned into drones. And were used to draw fire away from the manned ships. How could that work? The enemy would soon learn that they couldn't afford to ignore the drones. Because the drones would do to their ships...what a bug ship did to the U.S.S. Odyssey.

I don't think that's the case at all. Miranda's were perfectly serviceable ships. They weren't a Sovereign or a Defiant, but they're far from useless death traps.

They seem to be, at the very least, roughly on par with Jem Hadar bug ships.