The Coast Guard is, yes. During times of war it falls under the Defense Department command.
Military themes in the Star Trek universe.
- Thread starter TopperHenly
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I'm not convinced that follows. Many countries have paramilitary police forces which are definitely government sanctioned. It just means "structured like a military, but not one". The merchant navy is structured very similarly to the actual navy in terms of rank and tradition.
In America; not elsewhere.
Yes, I should have been more specific.
True, but that's as much an artifact of the reality that the USCG represents much of the US' naval armed "small boy" force, whereas in most other Anglophone countries (RN, RAN, RNZN) integrate such vessels into their navy (for instance, the PoV ship of the RAN drama Sea Patrol is a RAN warship, but would be a CG cutter in US service)
Therefore many coastguards would be of no use to their militaries and remain wholly civilian.
I like the idea of Starfleet as NASA and the military mixed together. It might not have been the original intent in the 60s but I think it works well enough. Earth Starfleet from Enterprise definitely has the NASA feel to me with MACO bringing the military part and probably being the guys fighting the local United Earth conflicts and whatnot with ships like Franklin originally or hitching rides on ships like the Warp Deltas or Intrepid-types. Then 2161 comes and they both get folded into the Federation Starfleet with UESPA, the Imperial Guard and whatever the Vulcan and Tellarite military are called which is why you get these constant push and pull of Starfleet as not the military except when it is. This continues on into the 24th century which is why you get Picard saying it's not military and something about not liking war games and then have Starfleet fighting all the conflicts of the TNG-era. I always try to remember that TNG's early attitudes about Starfleet and having families aboard might seem the outlier to a lot of earlier stuff with TOS and what would come later in DS9 but they were still trying things out and it is possible that in some alternate TV universe that after Encounter at Farpoint the writers might have had the Enterprise-D as this big floating city out in the middle of unexplored space, actually years away from the Federation, so having families aboard what we might think now as a military vessel made more sense in 1987. But I think that premise changed so we instead have the Federation flagship chugging about inside the borders on milk runs most of the time.
As an aside, in regards to Stargate, I've been reading Bill McCay's Stargate book series that act as sequels to the original film and not SG1, and it's really interesting to see this darker and more militaristic side to Stargate that's already existed. In the first book alone you have this heavy build up of US military forces on Abydos and conflicts with the Abydonians and is definitely not the nice and light approach of SG1 and it's siblings.
As an aside, in regards to Stargate, I've been reading Bill McCay's Stargate book series that act as sequels to the original film and not SG1, and it's really interesting to see this darker and more militaristic side to Stargate that's already existed. In the first book alone you have this heavy build up of US military forces on Abydos and conflicts with the Abydonians and is definitely not the nice and light approach of SG1 and it's siblings.
More like a combination of NASA, NOAA, PHSCC and Homeland Security to me lately. Although when conceived the above answer might have been closer admittedly.
I think it all depends on your definition of military, too.
If you define military as something like 'an organized and armed force to whom the primary task / responsibility of warfare/defense falls in the eventuality of a armed conflict / war ', Starfleet is clearly a military (DS9 evidences this).
If you define military as something like 'an organized and armed force that has warfare/defense as its primary task / responsibility', Starfleet is clearly not a military, as their primary task is exploration.
Pending such a definition, it's all a bit vague.
If you define military as something like 'an organized and armed force to whom the primary task / responsibility of warfare/defense falls in the eventuality of a armed conflict / war ', Starfleet is clearly a military (DS9 evidences this).
If you define military as something like 'an organized and armed force that has warfare/defense as its primary task / responsibility', Starfleet is clearly not a military, as their primary task is exploration.
Pending such a definition, it's all a bit vague.
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While we've never had any solid canon on this, one of the favourite scenes of the "not a military" crowd certainly supports this, and there are a number of (de facto) analogues in the RW, particularly if you emphasise warfare rather than defense (the USCG and the JMDF spring to mind as de jure "non-military" but still defensive organisations):
PICARD: Starfleet is not a military organization. Our purpose is exploration.
KOLRAMI: Then why am I here?
PICARD: Because with the Borg threat, I have decided that my officers and I need to hone our tactical skills. In a crisis situation, it is prudent to have several options.
RIKER: I still prefer brains over brawn.
(to Kolrami)
I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills -- it's a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain.
KOLRAMI: Your objection is noted. Let us hope your distaste for the exercise will not affect your strategic abilities.
There is a moment as Riker absorbs the words and the underlying contempt with which they were delivered.
RIKER: Mister Kolrami, when I agree to do a thing. I do it.
(to Picard, lighter)
Care to surrender now, Captain?
Picard gives Riker a warm, small smile, then looks to Kolrami as if to say, "see what a hell of a fellow he is?" Off their various expressions --
^That's why I included 'primary' in the 'definition'. The USCG may be a defensive organization, but probably not the one you would primarily rely on for defense of the U.S. (of course that introduces the added difficulty that there would be only one 'military', which I don't think is necessarily correct)..
Except of course that pretty much all 'canon' star trek material indicates it is anything but a 'minor province' given how often their ships and crew still get involved in some form of combat, so in that case we'd need to go with the notion that what we see on screen is a highly non-representative sample of 'everyday Starfleet life'.
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Actually, as I was taught...’We are that hard nucleus about which the Navy forms in time of war.’
(Apologies to my Navy brethren out there.)
Cheers,
-CM-
Exactly so. Riker's comment comes across as extremely naïve. And, even if it is a "minor province" it still requires training. I train every year for an active shooter situation in my office. How often has that happened? Once, in the four years I've been there. Certainly not part of my day to day. But, we still train.
They do have their own methods for disciplinary actions... but court martials in Starfleet aren't unexpected.
You are sending exploratory representatives who swore to uphold Federation values and ideals when dealing with alien cultures while wielding highly advanced technology (that's A LOT of responsibility).
Also, death sentences don't exist in the Federation.
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about whether people want more exploration of military themes and/or culture in Star Trek?
Why instead of discussing that has this turned into yet another fruitless debate on whether Starfleet is the military or not? :-/
Why instead of discussing that has this turned into yet another fruitless debate on whether Starfleet is the military or not? :-/
This was really the only way this discussion was going to go.
Welcome to fandom.
Also, there is the simple fact that the function of military and people's opinions on it are highly variable. For instance, in the US, the US Army Corps of Engineers can provide a lot of civil support for local projects and surveys to determine what the need is. It is not immediately a combat oriented function, which the military often gets lump in to.
Personally, I think Starfleet is a blend of both, with each branch serving a specific role to support the overall mission.
Now, do I want to explore military type themes in Trek? Yes, I do. And I think Trek has already done so in a way. Starfleet, especially in DS9 but also in other shows, is shown to be a place with its own distinct culture, values and way of doing things that are sometimes at odds with more civilian concerns. It would be interesting to explore that nature and the overall impact of Starfleet personnel interacting with Federation civilians as a whole. Think "Trouble with Tribbles" (Barris vs. Kirk) but over a longer storyline.
Actually, fits with a series I have wanted for a bit. Basically Stargate: Atlantis but in Trek. Going over to another galaxy and end up on an expedition to create a viable colony.
Not really. No matter where you stand on that "debate" there's not denying that across the Franchise there was occasional exploration of military themes, especially in DS9.
The the more interesting question to debate is whether people want more or less of those themes.
Actually, very really.
There are certain keywords on this board that will bring up the same old arguments. The moment I saw "military" in the thread title, I knew instantly where the conversation was going to go. Doesn't matter what your take on the subject is, it will eventually lead to that certain debate. It will always do so.
There is a non military component of the US Coast Guard, as well, the Coast Guard Auxiliary. They wear the uniform but are not subject to the military rules. They can serve alongside regular coasties on non military duties, but otherwise work among themselves. Their organizational unit is the "Flotilla". They handle rescue, safety patrols, education, maintaining aids to navigation, etc. You can tell them apart as their dress uniforms have silver buttons instead of gold. I think their equivalent in other countries might be lifeboat services, which is actually the lineage for the CG Aux, also, as the coast guard as a combination of the Revenue Cutters, the Lifeboard Service, and the Lighthouse keeping service.
We never get to see Star Fleet Auxiliary volunteers in little starcutters maintaining subspace beacons, but I like to think they are out there
Inevitably, any attempt at discussing Military and Star Trek just turns into Is Starfleet a Military. Trust me, I've seen other threads in my day that were about completely different military matters in the franchise that just turned into The Debate about whether Starfleet is a military or not. I even started a thread once asking why so many were resistant to Starfleet being a military which just turned into an extension of The Argument about whether Starfleet is a military or not.
I will say the Star Trek franchise does tend to have a very simplistic view of what a military is. When we do see organizations in Star Trek which are intentionally military, including intentionally militaristic takes on Starfleet like what we see in the Mirror Universe or in Yesterday's Enterprise, they always depict these militaries as aggressive hawks, uniforms tend to have really severe and stiff collars and/or shoulder epaulets. The personnel are cranky and or unpleasant and they have a strict shoot first and ask questions never policy, in contrast to our Starfleet always being the ones seeking to talk differences out and find alternative solutions that don't involve violence and combat. Basically the franchise is always depicting Starfleet as the gallant white knights who find the right solution to the situation always, while the militaries tend to be brutish thugs who think everything can be solved by fighting and always lose as a result. Indeed, without getting into specific plot points, this is basically what goes on in the most recent Disco episode.
This completely misses the point that even today, militaries aren't always aggressors seeing violence as the only option, or that militaries have a variety of tasks and obligations besides combat, defense and anything related to those criteria. But also, there are times when shooting first and not asking questions is exactly the way necessary to accomplish basic survival and defense, and there have been times when even noble Starfleet has had to resort to just such tactics.
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