Military themes in the Star Trek universe.

[TopperHenly]

I am currently watching TOS and TNG but, shall we say I have been distracted a bit by binge watching Stargate: Universe. One thing I liked about that SG:U and nuBSG which seems to be one of it's influences is the exploration of military themes and military culture. It goes beyond the usual war is hell or simplistic gung-ho themes that we are used to and explores the lives of ordinary military personnel and the culture in which they belong.

I get the impression that the Federation Starfleet isn't how we view as a military in it's traditional sense but is more a hybrid one that is required for it's diplomatic, scientific and exploratory ambitions. An example of this was in DS9 with the space station being essentially a military outpost and later on with the Dominion war. Another one was in Enterprise with the MACO's and was explored with Reed's clashes with Hayes over the philosophy training the ships personnel.

I've previously posted about an element of the Star Trek franchise that I would like to see more of but I also like a more serious side as well. There are so many ways and types of genres that the Star Trek franchise can be expanded to and contain elements of. I was wondering what other peoples thoughts are on having a more military slant to it?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm fine with it, I've always thought of StarFleet as 1/2 (Military, Police, & Peace Keeping) & 1/2 (Exploratory, Scientific Research, & Diplomatic Corp).

 

[Orphalesion]

To be completely honest I have little interest in military themes in fiction in general and I found Sisko's uniform fetish in the Marquis episodes to be one of his less likable aspects, for example.
Partly that might be because I'm form a background where military isn't held in as high regard as it is in the US.
So I don't want Star Trek to lean too heavily into military drama.

But don't understand me wrong, I accept Starfleet as a military/semi-military organization and I can get behind the occasional military/war-themed story such as the Siege of AR-558, I'm just not too interested in heavy, overly serious military themes/drama.

 

[fireproof78]

See, I would like Trek to utilize its military side to explore many aspects of military life, the good, the bad and everything in between. In the US, I know there is high regard for the military but that isn't the only part of the story to tell. There is struggle with substance use, mental health, and fear of impacting career due to various factors, as well as family stressors.

I think Trek could explore that in an interesting way.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I get the impression that the Federation Starfleet isn't how we view as a military in it's traditional sense but is more a hybrid one that is required for it's diplomatic, scientific and exploratory ambitions.

Startrek.com has this to say on the matter:

Starfleet

Branch of the United Federation of Planets assigned to the exploration of space and the resulting scientific, diplomatic and defensive duties. Starfleet began as an Earth agency dedicated to space exploration. To this end, Starfleet utilized interstellar starships and eventually built and maintained a network of starbases. The first warp 5 starship, the Enterprise NX-01, was launched in April 2151 and captained by Jonathan Archer. The ship represented humankind's first foray into long-term space travel.

This suggest to me that Starfleet is "not a military" primarily because unlike most military organisations (particularly armies which have always been regarded as "the military"), their defence functions are a secondary collateral concern, rather than their primary purpose.

Contrast for instance the objectives of the US Army:

• Preserving the peace and security and providing for the defense of the United States, the Commonwealths and possessions and any areas occupied by the United States
• Supporting the national policies
• Implementing the national objectives
• Overcoming any nations responsible for aggressive acts that imperil the peace and security of the United States

 

[The Wormhole]

The whole "Starfleet isn't a military" thing only started because Roddenberry was removed from authority over the movies and wanted a way to launch a smear campaign against Nick Meyer. Then later Roddenberry developed an intense hatred of the military when developing TNG and that show reflected that opinion accordingly. The truth of the matter is that Starfleet was clearly a military in TOS and no one would even question the matter if it weren't for all the "not a military" nonsense in the other shows.

Despite "not being a military" Starfleet still keeps all the trappings of military service, identical ranks, protocols, terminology, ceremonies, right down to the littlest details. Honestly, if we're supposed to believe Starfleet isn't a military, then maybe so much effort shouldn't have been expended in making Starfleet so identical to the military. It's like the joke I often pull out other times this issue comes up, Starfleet isn't a military, they're an armed uniform service with rank structure, martial discipline and the responsibility of defending the Federation and fighting its wars.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Also, before anyone mentions 'para-military' one of the key differences is that, as a rule, one is officially sanctioned by the standing government and the other is not.

 

[Mudd]

Starfleet was clearly military in its original conception.

What it was not portrayed as was an organization steeped in military ritual or possessed of a militaristic mindset.

One of the attitudinal problems that this topic always stirs up is small vocal part of the fandom that would like to see Trek take a more militaristic approach to its characters and problem solving, emphasizing spaceship combat, firefights and various bits of pomp and circumstance.

Some folks would be happy if every episode and movie were a knock-off of ST:TWOK in tone and visual design.* That kind of thing happened only briefly and occasionally in Trek before Roddenberry demilitarized the thing, and to focus on it very much would be to distort - not "Gene's Vision" - but the original version of the show as it was conceived, produced, and has stood as the bedrock of the franchise for nearing six decades now.

* No, Scotty playing bagpipes during a naval burial at sea is not the epitome of emotionally engaged storytelling. It was a cute, derivative, sentimental cliche.

 

[1001001]

Let’s see:

Gene Roddenberry thread? Check.
Money in the Federation? Check.
Starfleet as military? Check!

 

[Oddish]

Starfleet could be considered a uniformed service. Not military in that it was not created and is not outfitted for combat or defense. Its ships are primarily exploratory, with weapons and shields added as an afterthought. By comparison, look at a battleship like the USS Missouri. Everything on those ships was designed to kill, demolish, and/or annihilate. The Enterprise is kind of like one of those ships, but with a couple of 5-inch deck guns and one missile launcher. Basic defenses, not a purpose built instrument of war. It's a little like the Naval ships used for oceanography: ranks are assigned and protocols are observed, but its purpose is not waging war.

Consider what the result would have been if the Odyssey in "The Jem'Hadar" had been a purpose built warship, just five times the Defiant's size. It would probably have had at least 20 Defiant style pulse phasers, and we've seen how fast those stomp on Jem'Hadar fighters. And even if one of them had tried a kamikaze attack, the massive amounts of ablative armor that a Galaxy class could be plated with would have weathered it. That's what a military organization would have put into play. Which Starfleet is not.

 

[fireproof78]

Let’s see:

Gene Roddenberry thread? Check.
Money in the Federation? Check.
Starfleet as military? Check!

View attachment 18523

Full moon.

 

[Odo]

Let’s see:

Gene Roddenberry thread? Check.
Money in the Federation? Check.
Starfleet as military? Check!

View attachment 18523

brb, going to start a thread about what's actually canon

 

[1001001]

 

[Odo]

 

[Orphalesion]

See, I would like Trek to utilize its military side to explore many aspects of military life, the good, the bad and everything in between. In the US, I know there is high regard for the military but that isn't the only part of the story to tell. There is struggle with substance use, mental health, and fear of impacting career due to various factors, as well as family stressors.

I think Trek could explore that in an interesting way.

See I just don't find any part of military life/culture particularly interesting. I can't relate to it and is not emotionally charged for me. That's what I wanted to express. Maybe I should have said "I'm from a background where military isn't as culturally significant as in the US"
BTW, I'm not saying the military is bad or anything, just that it doesn't have the same importance in my culture as it does in the US and fictional explorations of it aren't particularly interesting to me personally.

If Star Trek became a full military sci-fi drama like NuBSG (or even SG-SG1) , I would probably lose interest in it. Not saying that there aren't some interesting stories like that to tell, but I'd prefer for them to remain an ocassional thing or shuffled off into it's own Star Trek spin off series that I can ignore, like I do with Picard.

That's the thing I guess, with Lower Decks existing, DISC's 3rd season being fairly good so far and Prodigy and SNW hopefully being to my tastes I wouldn't mind an additional military Star Trek show existing as well, but I wouldn't want it to be the premating, dominant tone of the franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

but I wouldn't want it to be the premating, dominant tone of the franchise.

No, of course not. Any more than I want Lower Decks to be the prevailing tone.

 

[cooleddie74]

Starfleet is not military in the 20th and 21st century sense of the word but it is heavily military in structure and behavior. Kirk in TOS once called himself a soldier, not a diplomat. David Marcus in TWOK said that a Federation starship arriving to take control of the Genesis Device was the military getting its hands on something created by science. Starfleet is the armed defense force of the Federation and wages all its wars and smaller skirmishes with alien powers.

It's not formally military but for all intents and purposes it's a military with extensive scientific and exploratory responsibilities. Think of it as a ship commanded by Dr. Robert Ballard that is also armed with deck guns and missiles for potential conflicts with hostile vessels intending to harm the Eastern seaboard of the United States.

 

[NCC-73515]

Despite "not being a military" Starfleet still keeps all the trappings of military service, identical ranks, protocols, terminology, ceremonies, right down to the littlest details. Honestly, if we're supposed to believe Starfleet isn't a military, then maybe so much effort shouldn't have been expended in making Starfleet so identical to the military. It's like the joke I often pull out other times this issue comes up, Starfleet isn't a military, they're an armed uniform service with rank structure, martial discipline and the responsibility of defending the Federation and fighting its wars.

Don't police forces, firefighters, and coast guards do the same? Are they military forces?

 

[Tenacity]

Think of it as a ship commanded by Dr. Robert Ballard

If Ballard was a commissioned officer in a military force, sure.

Don't police forces, firefighters, and coast guards do the same? Are they military forces?

Do police and fire departments have internal courts martials with punishment up to death sentances?

The US Coast Guard is a branch of the military, it's service members are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

 

[XCV330]

oh.. this discussion. well it will all get settled and worked out this time. best of luck.