MeTV's SuperSci-Fi Saturday Night

[Christopher]

Well, there a lot of procedurals that follow the episodic formula, right?

Theoretically, but much of the time, the greater emphasis is on the main characters' ongoing story arcs and problems, and the cases-of-the-week get relatively short shrift and coincidentally happen to resonate with whatever personal issues the main characters are dealing with that week. (That was done so extensively on Fringe that one episode even had the characters remark on the mysterious synchronicity of it all, though no explanation of it was ever offered.)

The tangent that I'm talking about started when you quibbled over what network Supergirl's first season was on.

Which I meant to symbolize the fact that it wasn't exactly like the other shows; a different network has different execs giving notes and influencing the show's emphasis and direction, so it won't necessarily be the same even with the same production staff. I meant to go back and add that clarification, but you replied before I could.

They're not at all the same type of show to my eye. Supergirl is a full-season (had a shortened season last time because it started late) network show that's superficially dabbling in serialized ongoing storylines...it doesn't even come close to a 10-to-13-episode, fully-serialized cable/streaming show. If you can't see or acknowledge the difference in format and storytelling style between a show like Supergirl or The Flash and a show like Daredevil and Jessica Jones, then we simply don't have enough common ground to continue this. We're not even speaking the same language.

And you're mistaking my use of Supergirl as one example of the overall pattern I'm discussing for a comment about Supergirl specifically. You clearly have a problem with that specific show, so let's just forget about that example altogether, because it's proven too distracting. I'm absolutely not interested in pitting individual shows' qualities against each other; I'm trying to have a larger conversation about overall trends and changes from era to era. My actual point is that shows today don't really seem to have single standout episodes like they used to, because it's all about telling one big multi-chapter story. You asked if there were any specific Daredevil or Jessica Jones episodes that stood out, but that's the question I would ask you, or anyone else, as an opportunity to refute my premise. I notice you didn't mention any specific episodes of DD or JJ that stood out for you; you're only speaking about their quality as overall works. And that actually supports my point rather than refuting it.

No storytelling style is going to survive being handled in a piss-poor manner. That's what Supergirl did. A better-crafted show could have given you a better adaptation of "For the Man Who Has Everything" within a serialized series framework.

You and I clearly have very different opinions of Supergirl. And I disagree with your conclusion. First off, the reason the episode had to serve so many plotlines at once is because it was the 13th episode, the end of their initial order, and thus would've had to serve as the season (or series) finale if they hadn't gotten the back nine pickup. So its issues were specifically because of the way series television is structured these days. Maybe if they'd chosen to do it earlier in the season, or later, they would've had more room to give it attention. But since they chose to do it as their maybe-finale, it had to share the episode with everything else that was going on. The individual story had to give way to the larger whole.

Second, I wasn't even saying the episode was bad. I was saying that it wasn't as much of a standout as it could've been because it was treated more as one chapter in the overall saga. What I was saying was not about "good" vs. "bad" at all, but about the question of whether the modern style of serialized storytelling is even compatible with the idea of doing an episode that's an adaptation of a single-issue story. The style these days is more focused on adapting larger story arcs, because individual episodes are just parts of a whole these days rather than wholes in their own right. As I said, even nominally episodic procedurals these days tend to be interested in their cases-of-the-week only to the extent that they can be used in service to the ongoing character arcs.

 

[Saga]

apologies if this has already been discussed, i don't feel like wading through several pages of arguments... but will anyone be watching Planet of the Apes this Saturday? i wouldn't mind rewatching and discussing it with youse guys.

 

[Greg Cox]

apologies if this has already been discussed, i don't feel like wading through several pages of arguments... but will anyone be watching Planet of the Apes this Saturday? i wouldn't mind rewatching and discussing it with youse guys.

I'm planning to check it out for nostalgia's sake.

 

[Warp Core Breach]

I haven't seen PotA in at least 20 years or whenever the Sci-Fi Channel aired it back then, so I'll be checking it out again as well.

 

[Christopher]

I definitely want to see PotA again for Roddy McDowall if nothing else.

Hmm... It just occurred to me that PotA was not only the first TV series in which McDowall was a regular cast member, but one of only three series-regular gigs in his entire career -- all of which I've seen. The other two were 1977's The Fantastic Journey, a D.C. Fontana-developed "lost in the Bermuda Triangle" fantasy series where McDowall played a character similar to Dr. Smith from Lost in Space, and 1982's Donald Bellisario series Tales from the Gold Monkey, a '40s South Seas adventure series where McDowall played the bartender at the characters' regular hangout. (If you remember Disney's TaleSpin, that was basically a plagiarization of Gold Monkey's premise crossed with Jungle Book characters; King Louie was the equivalent of McDowall's character, who was also named Louie.) Then there's the borderline case of The Pirates of Dark Water, a 5-episode fantasy miniseries from Hanna-Barbera in which McDowall voiced the comic-relief character -- except that when that was continued as the ongoing series Dark Water, McDowall didn't return and was replaced by Frank Welker, who overdubbed McDowall's lines when the miniseries episodes were rebroadcast as part of the ongoing series.

Given how many notable guest-star roles McDowall had over the course of his career, I'm surprised he was so rarely a series regular, and never on anything that lasted more than a season. (PotA had 14 episodes, Journey had 10, Monkey had 22 -- and McDowall wasn't in every episode of the latter two.)

 

[Saga]

cool. i haven't watched it in ages. since it was first released on dvd i'd say. i have always been a big Apes fan. i still have vhs recordings of when McDowall was host for the Apes movie marathon on Sci Fi in the early 90s.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Sometimes, but not always. That's my point. You're talking about this as if it were a universal attitude, but nothing is ever so universal. There was still a large segment of the audience back then that was prejudiced against any genre film/TV. For every critic who recognized that shows like Star Trek or The Incredible Hulk were a cut above the rest, there was another who pre-emptively dismissed them as inconsequential kid stuff and refused to give them fair consideration. I had the bad fortune to have a local TV critic who fell into the latter category.

Your local critic did not set the tone for what i would say was the general view of TIH during its first run life. Yes, superhero and sci-fi TV were often blasted as being irrelevant, childish, or not worthy of basic entertainment value, and Kenneth Johnson--well aware of that--moved the fantasy into realistic settings, rather than the other way around, as was the practice. The public took notice of that, and with Wonder Woman and The Amazing Spider-Man already on air by the time TIH's pilot aired, the contrast was as loud and apparent as the fireworks display in NY for the 4th of July.

TIH was credited for being the first superhero adaptation to bring respectability to the format, delivered in a way that the average, non-comic initiated audience member could enjoy without the embarrassment of watching adults act like cartoon characters--a feat many comic adaptations of the 21st century still struggle to avoid...when they're trying to.

And it's not as if TIH didn't have aspects that could be validly criticized. It was very formulaic. It was one more rehash of the Fugitive mold that had already become something of a cliche by that time

You say this often, for North American TV productions, its is not historically correct. If The Fugitive / "innocent man on the run" idea is used as the starting marker of this sub-genre, true examples only appeared three times, with only one being remembered (to use as a reference) / successful:

• The Fugitive (obviously).
• Run For Your Life.
• The Immortal.

On that note, there's argument that Run For Your Life (launched by Fugitive creator Roy Huggins) is not necessarily part of this sub-genre, since the series' Paul Bryan was merely faced with a terminal disease, not on the run from an antagonist like The Fugitive's Lt. Gerard, or The Immortal's Jordan Braddock & Arthur Maitland. With only one of the three of this sub-genre rising to a level of cultural / critical awareness (again, if The Fugitive is the starting marker), by the time The Incredible Hulk premiered, the sub-genre was not long lived and/or abused to the point where cliches defined it.

Moreover, TIH was not widely viewed through the lens of "i've seen this before," as the real story and characters were compelling enough to get beyond such judgement, much in the way that Hill Street Blues, or Law and Order--in the strictest sense, were more in a long line of police procedural series--still established their own voice with success.

David's duffel bag and jacket always survive

Jokes aside, you do realize that with few exceptions, he's not using the same duffel bag or jacket in every episode. He loses everything, from clothes to identification (when used) and his journal (the one used in "A Solitary Place").

he never sticks with an attempted treatment for more than one episode

Because the treatments do not work. Any sound mind would not continue to use treatments that were ineffective. Moreover, post "Married," David referred to Caroline's treatment, but he admitted not learning enough to continue using it effectively.

McGee never puts the pieces together, etc.

McGee is one reporter, working with half of the story (if even that much), no support or belief from official sources. Cases are not always easy to solve. Hell, in real life, 41 years after Hoffa's disappearance, even after several investigators--including the FBI with their world-class resources--have tried to solve the case, the circumstances of his fate remain unknown, the case still open. That said, how easy it would be for one reporter to solve the mystery of something many--including leading anthropologists and most of law enforcement--believe to be a hoax--especially in the era of endless, mocked extraterrestrial & Bigfoot sightings?

I Maybe you were lucky enough to have exposure to critics that were more open-minded and fair toward the show, but trust me, not every critic felt the same way.

I was not only exposed to local critics, but the opinions of writers for other publications. While not all critics loved TIH, the general view was a seismic shift away from the then-common reaction to superhero adaptations up to that point in history. Clearly, there was a reason.

 

[RJDiogenes]

apologies if this has already been discussed, i don't feel like wading through several pages of arguments... but will anyone be watching Planet of the Apes this Saturday? i wouldn't mind rewatching and discussing it with youse guys.

I probably won't actually watch it, since it's on at a bad time, but I have the DVDs so I might do a rewatch as it's being discussed here.

 

[Skipper]

But was TIH considered a "superhero" show? Putting aside the writing quality, I find it difficult saying that Wonder Woman and The Amazing Spider-Man are in the same genre with it.

TIH has almost none of the classic superhero tropes. Probably The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman check more superhero boxes than the green giant.

 

[Christopher]

Your local critic did not set the tone for what i would say was the general view of TIH during its first run life.

Again: Yes, I have already repeatedly agreed that what you are saying about the show was true in general. I'm not contradicting you. I'm simply pointing out additional information, the fact that the general attitude you describe was not absolutely universal. I intend my point to complement yours, that's all.

You say this often, for North American TV productions, its is not historically correct. If The Fugitive / "innocent man on the run" idea is used as the starting marker of this sub-genre, true examples only appeared three times, with only one being remembered (to use as a reference) / successful:

• The Fugitive (obviously).
• Run For Your Life.
• The Immortal.

I think you're defining it too narrowly. According to the book The Fugitive by David Pierson:

Popular and successful, The Fugitive was immediately followed by a rash of program imitators, all of which were based on the premise of a man-on-the-run in search of adventure and redemption: The Loner (1965-66), a western, and Run, Buddy, Run (1966-67), a situation comedy parody of The Fugitive, on CBS; Run for Your Life (1965-68), a contemporary adventure, and Branded (1965-66), a western, on NBC; and A Man Called Shenandoah (1965-66), a western, on ABC...

The Fugitive's long-term TV clout can be seen in the diverse range of prime-time contemporary wanderer-redeemer series that have followed it: The Invaders (1967-68), Then Came Bronson (1969-70), The Immortal (1970-71), The Incredible Hulk (1978-82), The A-Team (1983-87), Highway to Heaven (1984-89), Starman (1986-87), Quantum Leap (1989-93), Renegade (1992-97), Touched by an Angel (1994-2003), Nowhere Man (1995-96), The Pretender (1996-2000), Promised Land (1996-99), and Prison Break (2005-9).

Okay, some of those examples stretch the point, but I'd definitely count TIH, Starman, Renegade, Nowhere Man, and The Pretender as good examples, plus The A-Team and Quantum Leap as borderline cases. I'd also add the series versions of Logan's Run and Planet of the Apes (as was mentioned earlier), the early FOX series Werewolf, and the Universal Action Pack's Vanishing Son. And those are just the shows that actually got made. Gene Roddenberry abandoned The Questor Tapes after it got picked up for series because the network insisted on dropping the second lead and revamping the premise to make it a Fugitive-style series about Questor running from the government. The show's creative minds objected to that change precisely because it was seen as reducing the show to a conventional formula and losing its originality. 16 years later, Lawrence Herzog (who would later create Nowhere Man) did a pilot called Project: Tinman that essentially was the show Questor would've been if Roddenberry had bowed to the network.

Because the treatments do not work. Any sound mind would not continue to use treatments that were ineffective.

That's an overgeneralization. You seem to be forgetting episodes earlier this season where we talked specifically about how the treatments should've been worth continuing to investigate, like the calming herbs in the horse-race episode or the meditation in "Another Path."

While not all critics loved TIH

There, that wasn't so hard. That's the only point I was trying to get across, and clearly you agree, so there's no conflict.

But was TIH considered a "superhero" show? Putting aside the writing quality, I find it difficult saying that Wonder Woman and The Amazing Spider-Man are in the same genre with it.

TIH has almost none of the classic superhero tropes. Probably The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman check more superhero boxes than the green giant.

Yes, that was intentional on Kenneth Johnson's part. But the Hulk was well-known as a Marvel Comics character, at least as well-known as any other Marvel character at the time. And even aside from superheroes specifically, the Hulk was still a fantasy/sci-fi character, and F/SF was still not a very respectable genre in the public mind at the time. A guy suddenly turning into a huge green mindless brute and throwing things around isn't the sort of thing you'd normally associate with classy drama. Heck, even watching these episodes now, I often feel that the Hulk-outs are kind of a non sequitur and are just there to fill a mandatory action quotient.

 

[Greg Cox]

cool. i haven't watched it in ages. since it was first released on dvd i'd say. i have always been a big Apes fan. i still have vhs recordings of when McDowall was host for the Apes movie marathon on Sci Fi in the early 90s.

If you'll allow me a shameless (but highly topical) plug, McDowall is on the cover of a new PLANET OF THE APES short-story anthology that's coming out in January, Planet of the Apes: Tales from the Forbidden Zone--and, yes, I have a story in the book.

And I know that at least one story in the book (by Trek author Dayton Ward) takes place during the TV series.

http://13thdimension.com/exclusive-first-look-planet-of-the-apes-tales-from-the-forbidden-zone/

 

[The Old Mixer]

I can vouch for the Branded example. The protagonist wasn't being actively pursued, but he was a wanderer whose reputation as an Army deserter tended to make trouble for him wherever he went.

 

[Saga]

If you'll allow me a shameless (but highly topical) plug, McDowall is on the cover of a new PLANET OF THE APES short-story anthology that's coming out in January, Planet of the Apes: Tales from the Forbidden Zone--and, yes, I have a story in the book.

And I know that at least one story in the book (by Trek author Dayton Ward) takes place during the TV series.

http://13thdimension.com/exclusive-first-look-planet-of-the-apes-tales-from-the-forbidden-zone/

cool, i'll keep an eye out for it. by the way, i did pre-order The Heiress of Collinwood after you mentioned it several months back. i'm really looking forward to it.

 

[Greg Cox]

cool, i'll keep an eye out for it. by the way, i did pre-order The Heiress of Collinwood after you mentioned it several months back. i'm really looking forward to it.

Hope you like it. And be sure to admire the cover copy.

 

[JD]

Damn, I just saw MeTV's article about the new shows they're adding, and all of the stuff that I want to see is either on when I'm at work or sleeping. I've been really curious to see The Wild Wild West, but I work Saturday evenings, and I've been wanting to see The Planet of the Apes TV series for quite a while now. I wonder if they'll have any of them online?
MeTV has started selling retro action figures, including a whole bunch from Batman '66 and one of Wonder Woman.

 

[RJDiogenes]

If you'll allow me a shameless (but highly topical) plug, McDowall is on the cover of a new PLANET OF THE APES short-story anthology that's coming out in January, Planet of the Apes: Tales from the Forbidden Zone--and, yes, I have a story in the book.

It's available for pre-order at Amazon, but it's under the title Classic Planet of the Apes.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's available for pre-order at Amazon, but it's under the title Classic Planet of the Apes.

Thanks for the clarification. That's a placeholder title that was used before the final title was announced just a few days ago. I guess Amazon hasn't updated the entry yet.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I'm sure they'll get it done by March or April.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Again: Yes, I have already repeatedly agreed that what you are saying about the show was true in general. I'm not contradicting you. I'm simply pointing out additional information, the fact that the general attitude you describe was not absolutely universal. I intend my point to complement yours, that's all.

Understood.

I think you're defining it too narrowly. According to the book The Fugitive by David Pierson:

You should get a copy of The Fugitive Recaptured by Ed Robertson. Great source.

Okay, some of those examples stretch the point

Oh yes. Of the series mentioned, most were not about not about the specific sub-genre of the innocent man on the run from an antagonist:

• A Man Called Shenandoah, which was not about an innocent man on the run from an antagonist--he was simply trying to recover his identity.
• The Invaders - David Vincent was not so much an innocent man on the run as he was the one of the few trying to expose the aliens and their plot to the world.
  
• Run for Your Life - already covered.

While Branded used this idea, I still say it--like The Immortal--were not on the cultural/critical radar enough to turn the sub-genre into a cliche in the minds of audiences by the time TIH premiered.

..and while the TV version of Logan's Run might fit, it was in production roughly the same period as the pilot for The Incredible Hulk, (and with premieres only two months apart), so it had no influential bearing on TIH as far as audiences and critics were concerned.

but I'd definitely count TIH, Starman, Renegade, Nowhere Man, and The Pretender as good examples, plus The A-Team and Quantum Leap as borderline cases

They (and Werewolf) were all post-TIH, so for its time, TIH was not beating a dead sub-genre.

That's an overgeneralization. You seem to be forgetting episodes earlier this season where we talked specifically about how the treatments should've been worth continuing to investigate, like the calming herbs in the horse-race episode or the meditation in "Another Path."

The herbs--along with Caroline and Li Sung's techniques could not be maintained; he's always on the move, and never a situation that would allow him the time, resources and aggravation-free environment to explore any of it, hence the reason he tried isolation ("A Solitary Place") as the only means of controlling triggers for the Hulk.

So, at the end of it all, David would see those treatments just as "unsuccessful" as the radiation treatments he received in the pilot, and in the final act of "Death in the Family."

 

[Christopher]

Oh yes. Of the series mentioned, most were not about not about the specific sub-genre of the innocent man on the run from an antagonist:

Again, though, that's defining it a bit too narrowly. Something doesn't have to be an exact copy of a show to be an attempt to emulate its format. The "man on the run" premise is a subcategory of what TV Tropes calls "Adventure Towns," a pseudo-anthology format in which the main character or characters travel from place to place and get involved in guest characters' problems. Networks liked this format because anthologies were considered prestigious and classy, but continuing lead characters garnered more audience loyalty, so it was a way to get the best of both worlds. Being on the run from a pursuer was a popular impetus for that wandering, but there were certainly others as well. If an Adventure Towns show had a different impetus for the lead character's wanderings, that doesn't mean it can't have been inspired by The Fugitive; it just means its creators weren't as blatantly imitative as some.

I certainly agree with you that The Invaders doesn't count as a Fugitive knockoff; rather, its similarities come from having the same creator and production company. Storywise, it definitely wasn't about a man on the run -- even though it should've been. One of the clumsiest elements of the show's premise was that "Architect David Vincent" managed to maintain a steady job and a permanent, listed address despite the fact that the aliens wanted to kill him. (The pilot claimed that the aliens wished to avoid killing him for fear that it would draw attention, but that was forgotten by episode 2, which began with the aliens' very public murder of another person who knew about them. And they frequently tried to kill Vincent later on.) If anything, the show was kind of an inversion of the Fugitive premise, since it focused on the hunter instead of the hunted.

..and while the TV version of Logan's Run might fit, it was in production roughly the same period as the pilot for The Incredible Hulk, (and with premieres only two months apart), so it had no influential bearing on TIH as far as audiences and critics were concerned.

They (and Werewolf) were all post-TIH, so for its time, TIH was not beating a dead sub-genre.

You're being too granular. The point is that the prevalance of shows like that demonstrates that the format was already a well-established formula. I'm absolutely not saying it was a "dead" subgenre, just that critics were already beginning to tire of it. If TV formulas "died" the moment critics started complaining about their sameness, then reality TV and police procedurals would've died long ago.