Could be. Unlike the Batmobile, which endured several modifications during the run of the series, The Black Beauty seems to be identical, so maybe one of the vehicles was exposed to the elements more than its twin.
MeTV's SuperSci-Fi Saturday Night
- Thread starter JD
- Start date
Could be. Unlike the Batmobile, which endured several modifications during the run of the series, The Black Beauty seems to be identical, so maybe one of the vehicles was exposed to the elements more than its twin.
And I haven't made a single definite sighting of the Dull Beauty since I brought it up...so who knows what I thought I was seeing?
I have to say, this show has interested me more than I would have thought. It's pretty good at being the type of show that it's trying to be...the exploits of a street-level masked adventurer in a more grounded world than that of Batman. In that regard, it's more satisfying than Adventures of Superman or Wonder Woman, both of which struggle with not realizing the potential of the title characters and generally lame stories. It makes you wonder what they could have done with Batman if they'd played it with more of a straight face.
I can see why TGH wasn't as successful, though...it pretty much avoids all of the more colorful and larger-than-life features that made Batman stand out.
I have to say, this show has interested me more than I would have thought. It's pretty good at being the type of show that it's trying to be...the exploits of a street-level masked adventurer in a more grounded world than that of Batman. In that regard, it's more satisfying than Adventures of Superman or Wonder Woman, both of which struggle with not realizing the potential of the title characters and generally lame stories. It makes you wonder what they could have done with Batman if they'd played it with more of a straight face.
I can see why TGH wasn't as successful, though...it pretty much avoids all of the more colorful and larger-than-life features that made Batman stand out.
Wonder Woman was such a hit or miss show; most of the 1st season (WWII) was fairly solid (aside from Judgement from Outer Space, a truly idiotic alien encounter episode), and even a few of the early 2nd season scripts where WW was dealing with what could be seen as procedural law enforcement TV plots, but she just so happened to be a superhero, so it felt natural...then, there's the rest of the series, was just mindless.
The Adventures of Superman is difficult to watch beyond a part of season one. Few series fell into such lazy predictability, and an absolute lack of believable threats, and before anyone claims, "that was a 50s kids shows--that did not work that way" that would be an incorrect claim. Even The Lone Ranger or Rocky Jones, Space Ranger (clearly a kid's show) projected more risk in its stories.
Frankly, the Superman serials Superman (1948) and Atom Man vs.Superman (1950) were more effective as adaptations.
The first half (or so) of Batman's first season is as close look into that theory as we would ever get. Early on, the leads--West in particular--was less the finger-wagging boy scout, and more the serious-minded crimefighter. A bit paternalistic, but nothing like the interpretation we would see in the remainder of the series.
Further, there were more nighttime scenes, and the "big four" villains (or five, if you count Mr. Freeze) were nearly perfect representations of their comic counterparts. Yes, the humor element was there, but it was an accent--not the driving force as seen in the absurd third season.
There are conflicting accounts of TGH's performance; some just write it off as a flop, while others (including one account from producer Dozier) said it won its time slot, and was popular, but yet another account claims Dozier refused to shoot another season because ABC would not give the go-ahead to expand the series to one hour, which would allow more story & character development.
Last edited:
It's a TV show about a superhero. It's gotta look cool.
Which brings me back to my usual riff: My ideal superhero show or movie would look exactly like the Batman TV show, but have stories along the lines of those written by guys like Roy Thomas, Steve Englehart, Kurt Busiek, et al.
....interesting.
That's why I like the first season of Wonder Woman better. It was pretty faithful to the original comics. The pilot is even a pretty direct adaptation of the first couple of issues. We wouldn't see anything that faithful again until this century.
What I find interesting is that, while TGH is "grounded" relative to Batman, it's also kind of sci-fi with the Hornet's super-gadgets. They've got a remote-controlled aerial surveillance drone launched out of the back of their car, with a screen in the back seat to monitor its live video feed... in 1966. And the Hornet Sting is basically a Taser. It's kind of prophetic.
I've often wondered that myself. The same cast could probably have done a bang-up job with a serious Batman.
The thing is, though, at the time there was no frame of reference for a serious Batman. The comics had been silly and broad and fanciful ever since the Comics Code was instituted, and the more serious Batman stories of the early years would've been long out of print and hard to find. The producers became aware of Batman mainly through the re-release of the 1943 serial, which was pretty bad to start with and seemed even more ludicrous in retrospect. So it never would've occurred to them that Batman was something that could be played seriously.
Maybe not, but that's a big blind spot. TGH was an example of that exact concept, but it never occurred to them that most TGH tropes could equally be applied to Batman? Yes, I know the characters had different media origins, but that shouldn't affect what we saw on the screen. The only conceptual difference is that Batman has a cape and mask eyebrows.
Obviously someone recognized the similarities or they would never have teamed up the characters. "Willful ignorance" must apply to some extent.
Obviously someone recognized the similarities or they would never have teamed up the characters. "Willful ignorance" must apply to some extent.
I suggest looking at the referenced early 1st season of Batman. The "camp" stereotype was not as heavily applied as the current myth sells, and the overall scripts, cinematography and performances were closer to that seen on the The Green Hornet.
Well, if you have the same producer, the same production company/distributor for shows on the same network (ABC), then team ups are rather easy to accomplish. William Dozier developed Batman & TH for TV, and the similarity--their early comic / radio backgrounds, respectively, was not lost on Dozier, despite his promotional film where he states THG would not be an imitation of Batman--
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaogjQaZd0
That's what we think looking back today, since we're used to thinking of Batman as a serious concept and comic books as a serious medium. But both Batman and The Green Hornet were accurate, faithful interpretations of their properties as they existed in the 1960s. Batman comics for over a decade had been just as goofy and wild and intentionally ludicrous as what we saw on the show -- more so, in fact, because Adam West and Burt Ward never had to contend with Bat-Mite or alien invaders or time travel or weird transformations or prank wars with Superman. But The Green Hornet came from a radio series and movie serials that had always taken a serious tone.
And the differences were deeper than you suggest. Yes, they were both costumed crimefighters; but Batman was a beloved public hero who fought against colorful, themed bad guys who robbed banks and museums, while the Green Hornet worked outside the law of a deeply mob-infested city in order to battle its rampant corruption and racketeering the only way he could. Basically, the Green Hornet always used the narrative that Batman wouldn't adopt until the late 1980s. That's why they seem so similar to us today, but were worlds apart to 1960s audiences and producers.
They teamed up the characters because they produced both shows and wanted to cross-promote them. FOX teamed up the Bones and Sleepy Hollow casts two weeks ago, even though those are two shows that should never have crossed over. Cross-promotions don't always make sense, because they're driven by money, not story.
Oh, this I've gotta see.
By late 1963, National (DC) moved Julius Schwartz to editor of Batman & Detective Comics (replacing Jack Schiff). He made a night and day change from the 1950s goof era with the famed "New Look" period, as striking a departure as the earlier Silver Age Green Lantern, Flash & Atom were to their Golden Age versions.
In 1964--under Schwartz and artists like Carmine Infantino, the silly period of Batwoman, the 1st Bat Girl and Bat-Mite were nowhere to be found, with a deliberate return to detective-themed stories. In fact, one of Schwartz's early stories had Batman holding criminals at bay with a gun. Additionally, many of the stories were set at night, instead of the "every day is summertime morning" look of the Moldoff period.
It was due to those revolutionary changes to the Bat-comics, which inspired some comics fans to despise the TV series with each, passing season, as they argued (even in DC comics letters pages of the era) that the TV Batman was the polar opposite of what was printed in the comics of the time.
That criticism was particularly true of the 2nd & 3rd seasons of the TV series.
No, they were not. As noted earlier in this thread, i've heard so many fans who watched the crossover first run, and were bursting with excitement, as they wanted to see the characters meet since The Green Hornet's debut. This was not lost on the series stars, as Bruce Lee's friend/student M. Uyehara recalled in the book, Bruce Lee: The Incomparable Fighter:
Dozier launched TGH to be different than Batman, but the fans and eventually Dozier himself leaned in the direction of public interest.
Last edited:
I think Christopher's right...Batman was just coming out of the silliest period in his publishing history. Batman comics had been more colorful and OTT than not for most of the character's publishing history at that point. The then-recent changes to the comics may have been lost on the producers of the show.
Also, regarding TGH's ratings...I couldn't find exact Nielsen figures representing the show's general run, but a quick google turned up references to the show doing poorly against Wild, Wild West and routinely being in the bottom 20. I also came across a Chicago Tribune article from Oct. 11, 1966, about poorly performing new shows that had it at 73rd in the Nielsen's at that point.
Also, regarding TGH's ratings...I couldn't find exact Nielsen figures representing the show's general run, but a quick google turned up references to the show doing poorly against Wild, Wild West and routinely being in the bottom 20. I also came across a Chicago Tribune article from Oct. 11, 1966, about poorly performing new shows that had it at 73rd in the Nielsen's at that point.
Last edited:
It was not goofy "for over a decade," up to the the January, 1966 debut of the TV series, as the title had made a drastic change years earlier.
Dozier was well aware of the "New Look" titles, and older Bat issues when researching the character for adaptation. In fact, his decision to use the Riddler (a character who the "New Look" era brought back after an absence of 17 years) was (in part) based on his fresh appearance in then-recent Batman comic from May 1965, involving the "Molehill Mob"--the similarly named gang in "Hi Diddle Riddle" / "Smack in the Middle," the pilot episodes of the Batman TV series.
So, yes, Dozier was aware of the new handling of the characters.
Good research. Still, Dozier (and others) seem to think the show performed well, and would have earned a second season, if not for the hour long issue Dozier claimed he desired.
If you're going by your onscreen program guide, it might be listed under the affiliate station's letters...that's the case for my former MeTV affiliate, currently carrying H&I, which is listed as WZME. You might want to scan for programming. Their lineup varies from day to day, but they play a program called Through the Decades four times a day (7 and 1, a.m. and p.m., EST). Also, they're doing a Route 66 Binge starting at 1 p.m. EST Saturday that will go into Monday morning.
At the moment they're playing My Fair Lady, followed by an episode of The Twilight Zone.
Looking at their site, I take it your provider would be KASW out of Phoenix, correct?
At the moment they're playing My Fair Lady, followed by an episode of The Twilight Zone.
Looking at their site, I take it your provider would be KASW out of Phoenix, correct?
Well, not entirely. One of the biggest changes Julius Schwartz made was reintroducing Batman's rogues' gallery as a major part of the book, recurring villains who hadn't been featured in a while. Before then, the emphasis had shifted away from supervillains toward stories about aliens or time travel or things like that. I read once that Schwartz was aware that there were plans to make a Batman TV show, and he realized it would need colorful villains to succeed (perhaps remembering how George Reeves's Superman was stuck battling interchangeable gangsters for six years), so he reintroduced the rogues' gallery to the comics in the knowledge that the show would be using them for reference.
It's certainly not true that Schwartz immediately made Batman all dark and serious in 1963-4. Maybe he made it a bit less goofy than before, but not too much so, because it was still considered a major change when Dennis O'Neil started bringing more seriousness, depth, and social relevance to the comics in the '70s. For instance, it wasn't until O'Neil's "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge" that the Joker went from a clownish thief and prankster to the killer he'd been in the '40s.
DC wasn't just silly in those days, it was a total acid trip (which was a good thing-- it made them different from Marvel). And that included Batman. I don't know if changes had been made specifically in Batman or Detective, I don't remember that clearly, but those silly stories were ubiquitous, in themed special issues and so forth. It was not hard to find comics that were consistent with the TV show.
According to Carmine Infantino, then-editorial Director / publisher Irwin Donenfield's directive to Schwatz's regarding the Bat-titles was:
Aside from the innovative visual changes, the creatives completely restructured the tone and drive of the titles--and that included a well known return to the detective stories of the early years. To reiterate, one of the signs that "New Look" Batman was a seismic change were events such as Batman using a gun to hold criminals at bay, dropping the "domestic life" supporting cast of Batwoman, Bat Girl (1), Bat Mite and setting numerous stories at night.
This did not even carry the odor of the 1950s, and readers responded, as Batman was actually a serious detective again, instead of a costumed version of the 50's sitcom, Bachelor Father. There's no underselling or sweeping aside how this "New Look" Batman transformed/saved the character, which again, was the reason readers were so incensed by the progress of the TV series, and made those feelings known to the editorial staff at DC.
Logically, if "New Look" Batman was not such a radical return to the more serious base of the character, fans would not have had reason to rail against the increasingly silly TV version.
Further, it was once unchallenged and a frankly disrespectful myth (more academic works have done much to debunk) that Denny O'Neil's run was the beginning of "a major change when Dennis O'Neil started bringing more seriousness, depth, and social relevance to the comics in the '70s," for several reasons:
- In 1966, Our Army At War, DC's long lived war title, dealt with open racism in its Sgt. Rock series, and it was not the only DC title to deal with this early on.
- Batman titles, under writers like Frank Robbins had already increased the level of darker themes in Detective Comics.
- social issues relevant to the young adult culture were transforming the original Teen Titans comic by the end of the 1960s (under Bob Haney).
- In a move that was once only thought to be the (equally mythical) realm of Marvel, most of DC's Doom Patrol was killed off (a first in comic history, with the team sacrificing themselves to save the population of a town) in 1968.
That's just scratching the surface, but the point is clear: DC was already in a state of serious change long before O'Neil / the 70s Batman, Green Lantern/Green Arrow, etc.
Last edited:
Batman--
"Ice Spy" / "The Duo Defy"contained several swan songs:
One, it was the final story/episodes of season two.
Two, Madge Blake (Aunt Harriet) made her last regular appearance on the series. Her rapidly declining health reduced her to a few cameos in season three. She passed away in February of 1969.
Three, this was the third and final series appearance of Mr. Freeze. Outside of the "big four" of Joker, Penguin, Riddler & Catwoman, Freeze certainly held his own as a legitimate villain. Unfortunately, as talented as Eli Wallach was in just about every other character in his career, his Mr. Freeze was a bad caricature of the "foreign accent mastermind" that was already overused by the late 1960s.
Granted, the previous actors in the role (George Sanders & Otto Preminger) also used accents (altering their own). but Wallach was just plain bad--which is astonishing, considering how well the New York born actor excelled at accents (e.g. Calvera in The Magnificent Seven).
Star Trek fans will instantly recognize Elisha Cook Jr. (Samuel Cogley in "Court Martial") as Professor Isaacson, and Leslie Parrish (Carolyn Palamas in "Who Mourns for Adonais?") as the corrupt Glacia Glaze. This was Parrish's third trip to Gotham--she first dropped by in the 2nd part of the Penguin's debut story, "The Penguin's a Jinx" as airy starlet Dawn Robbins.
By the Spring of 1967, Batman was struggling, and unknown to fans at the time, a drastic change was in the works as this episode aired (and is referred to in passing by Gordon), one that would be seen as one of the death blows to the series....
On a happy note, "The Duo Defy" has a nice scene of the Wayne family playing with a very large slot car track. The series--never shy about getting any publicity--had this scene covered in the July 1967 issue of Model Car & Track magazine, as you see below--
It would have been cool if Bruce or Dick raced the Batmobile slot car (above) available at the time. Lost opportunity! I'm sure some might think that would have broken the fourth wall, but that was not unfamiliar territory for this series.
"Ice Spy" / "The Duo Defy"contained several swan songs:
One, it was the final story/episodes of season two.
Two, Madge Blake (Aunt Harriet) made her last regular appearance on the series. Her rapidly declining health reduced her to a few cameos in season three. She passed away in February of 1969.
Three, this was the third and final series appearance of Mr. Freeze. Outside of the "big four" of Joker, Penguin, Riddler & Catwoman, Freeze certainly held his own as a legitimate villain. Unfortunately, as talented as Eli Wallach was in just about every other character in his career, his Mr. Freeze was a bad caricature of the "foreign accent mastermind" that was already overused by the late 1960s.
Granted, the previous actors in the role (George Sanders & Otto Preminger) also used accents (altering their own). but Wallach was just plain bad--which is astonishing, considering how well the New York born actor excelled at accents (e.g. Calvera in The Magnificent Seven).
Star Trek fans will instantly recognize Elisha Cook Jr. (Samuel Cogley in "Court Martial") as Professor Isaacson, and Leslie Parrish (Carolyn Palamas in "Who Mourns for Adonais?") as the corrupt Glacia Glaze. This was Parrish's third trip to Gotham--she first dropped by in the 2nd part of the Penguin's debut story, "The Penguin's a Jinx" as airy starlet Dawn Robbins.
By the Spring of 1967, Batman was struggling, and unknown to fans at the time, a drastic change was in the works as this episode aired (and is referred to in passing by Gordon), one that would be seen as one of the death blows to the series....
On a happy note, "The Duo Defy" has a nice scene of the Wayne family playing with a very large slot car track. The series--never shy about getting any publicity--had this scene covered in the July 1967 issue of Model Car & Track magazine, as you see below--
It would have been cool if Bruce or Dick raced the Batmobile slot car (above) available at the time. Lost opportunity! I'm sure some might think that would have broken the fourth wall, but that was not unfamiliar territory for this series.
Last edited:
Batman: "Ice Spy/The Duo Defy": It's the season 2 finale, and it features a return appearance by Leslie Parrish, Dawn Robbins from the first Penguin episode. But it also features Eli Wallach as the least impressive of the three Messrs. Freeze. Plus Elisha Cook, Jr. as the least Icelandic Icelander ever. And the last appearance of Madge Blake as a series regular, though she'll make a couple of appearances in season 3.
The phone conversation between Batman and Bruce is hilarious, and our best chance to hear the difference between their voices (subtle, but it's there). And wow... Batman said "Risk is our business" more than ten months before Captain Kirk did! Rewrite the reference books!
"With dry ice in his veins, maybe something will happen?" Yeah, like he'll die of a carbon dioxide embolism.
And how the heck does a sub-zero vaporization chamber work? Since when did you vaporize something by making it colder? That's got to be the lamest idea for a themed deathtrap ever.
I'm afraid part 2 of this one leaves me cold -- sorry, no pun intended. The only funny bit is Batman having live fish in his utility belt just in case he needs to reward a helpful seal. Batman's stubborn insistence on the Emma Strunk vs. Glacia Glaze issue is overused -- and did we really need two uses of the Rabelais quote about the woman kissing her cow? I never expected to see bestiality referenced on Batman. And good grief, that slot-car finale was excruciatingly bad. The show's really taken a sudden downturn in quality these last few weeks of season 2, and I'm afraid it's not going to get much better in season 3.
Wonder Woman: "Stolen Faces": This one starts off with a neat little mystery. Is that Wonder Woman? Driving a car? Is she hurt? Oh, she's an impersonator, but who is she and what's the story behind her? It's the most interesting opening this show has had for quite a while.
And I guess the payoff's not bad. It's a bit convoluted, but the idea the villains faking a superhero saving the day in order to facilitate their getaway is kind of clever. All in all, not a bad episode by this show's standards.
Hold on... The doctor recognized Nancy's resemblance to Wonder Woman (which is really quite minimal) but didn't notice Diana's?
Ooh, Mr. Assassin Guy? Maybe diving into a truck full of dirty hospital laundry isn't really such a good idea?
Having Diana spin-change while falling is a nice twist (heh) on the convention. But why was she so quick to assume that a little old lady couldn't be an assassin?
Oh, that's fitting... One of the commercials run with the episode is a coat-store commercial with a little girl spinning and changing by jump-cut into several different coats.
The phone conversation between Batman and Bruce is hilarious, and our best chance to hear the difference between their voices (subtle, but it's there). And wow... Batman said "Risk is our business" more than ten months before Captain Kirk did! Rewrite the reference books!
"With dry ice in his veins, maybe something will happen?" Yeah, like he'll die of a carbon dioxide embolism.
And how the heck does a sub-zero vaporization chamber work? Since when did you vaporize something by making it colder? That's got to be the lamest idea for a themed deathtrap ever.
I'm afraid part 2 of this one leaves me cold -- sorry, no pun intended. The only funny bit is Batman having live fish in his utility belt just in case he needs to reward a helpful seal. Batman's stubborn insistence on the Emma Strunk vs. Glacia Glaze issue is overused -- and did we really need two uses of the Rabelais quote about the woman kissing her cow? I never expected to see bestiality referenced on Batman. And good grief, that slot-car finale was excruciatingly bad. The show's really taken a sudden downturn in quality these last few weeks of season 2, and I'm afraid it's not going to get much better in season 3.
Wonder Woman: "Stolen Faces": This one starts off with a neat little mystery. Is that Wonder Woman? Driving a car? Is she hurt? Oh, she's an impersonator, but who is she and what's the story behind her? It's the most interesting opening this show has had for quite a while.
And I guess the payoff's not bad. It's a bit convoluted, but the idea the villains faking a superhero saving the day in order to facilitate their getaway is kind of clever. All in all, not a bad episode by this show's standards.
Hold on... The doctor recognized Nancy's resemblance to Wonder Woman (which is really quite minimal) but didn't notice Diana's?
Ooh, Mr. Assassin Guy? Maybe diving into a truck full of dirty hospital laundry isn't really such a good idea?
Having Diana spin-change while falling is a nice twist (heh) on the convention. But why was she so quick to assume that a little old lady couldn't be an assassin?
Oh, that's fitting... One of the commercials run with the episode is a coat-store commercial with a little girl spinning and changing by jump-cut into several different coats.
