Methinks the lady doth protest too much!

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I would like to say that Kathryn telling Q that his wasn't "big enough" was less reassurance to Chakotay and more a cut down for Q.

Also, in that episode, I feel she was reassuring her XO that she was going to remain on the high ground with Q and less reassuring her potential lover that no one was going to take his place in the line up. By that point, IMHO, any chance of romance was long since gone.

But, season 3... yeah, ripe with J/C subtext. Even I can't deny that.

 

[DevilEyes]

I've always been told when a woman refers to you as "friend", it means she sees you as equal to a brother and there is no romantic interest.

You've been told wrong. A woman can have male friends that she thinks of as brothers and that she has no romantic interest in, but she can also have male friends that she could possibly get romantically involved with. I tend to think that you can't really have a serious romantic relationship with someone if that someone is not able to be your friend, among other things. There are male/female friendships that are free of any romantic overtones, and then there are those where there's sexual tension/some mutual attraction, or attraction on the part of one of them. It's not that uncommon to find two people who started off as friends and eventually became a couple - or those who really do remain friends after the breakup.

And it's not uncommon to find two people who started off as friends, become lovers, and destroy the friendship in the process.


Janeway couldn't risk that.

That's an argument why they didn't go through with it, not an argument that there was never any sexual attraction or romantic interest there in the first place, as exodus stated.

I've always been told when a woman refers to you as "friend", it means she sees you as equal to a brother and there is no romantic interest.

You've been told wrong. A woman can have male friends that she thinks of as brothers and that she has no romantic interest in, but she can also have male friends that she could possibly get romantically involved with. I tend to think that you can't really have a serious romantic relationship with someone if that someone is not able to be your friend, among other things. There are male/female friendships that are free of any romantic overtones, and then there are those where there's sexual tension/some mutual attraction, or attraction on the part of one of them. It's not that uncommon to find two people who started off as friends and eventually became a couple - or those who really do remain friends after the breakup.

Janeway was friends with Tuvok, and there were no signs of any romantic feelings from either of them. She was friends with Chakotay, but there was obvious sexual tension and some open flirting (in "Resolutions") there.

In relation to the topic at hand, it doesn't seem I'm wrong at all. Janeway called Chakotay "good friend" and didn't persue any romantic relationship with him. He was a friend and only a friend.


"Resolutions" was years ago in their journey and they were dealing with the idea of never being in command positions again, not to mention they were the only humans living on the planet. Who else were they going to pair up with? Besides a monkey, they didn't even have anybody but each other to even talk too.
We saw at the conclusion of that ep. and once they were back on Voyager, any and all flirting & ideas of any romantic relationship stopped. I'm sure if it was Tuvok stuck with Janeway in "Resolutions" the same things would have eventually happened. Just like in "Gravity", Tuvok shared his affections for another woman besides his wife when faced with living the rest of his life lost & without her.

I dunno, if I got stranded on a deserted planet with a friend, my first thoughts would be "How do we get out of here" and "How do we survive here", not "Now I must mate with you, since we're the only two people here - so let's start by giving you a big romantic speech about my feelings for you".

Besides, Janeway was able to endure a year and a half (or whatever time had passed) without 'mating' with anyone (and a few years more after this episode), so why would she be in a rush to hook up with someone, even if it was someone she supposedly had never felt any sexual attraction for or considered in a romantic way?

Look, I'm not a J/C shipper. I just don't want to pretend that I don't see sexual tension (clearly intended by the writers, and conveyed by what we saw on the screen, whatever the actors say in interviews) when it's staring me in the face.

 

[exodus]

You've been told wrong. A woman can have male friends that she thinks of as brothers and that she has no romantic interest in, but she can also have male friends that she could possibly get romantically involved with. I tend to think that you can't really have a serious romantic relationship with someone if that someone is not able to be your friend, among other things. There are male/female friendships that are free of any romantic overtones, and then there are those where there's sexual tension/some mutual attraction, or attraction on the part of one of them. It's not that uncommon to find two people who started off as friends and eventually became a couple - or those who really do remain friends after the breakup.

And it's not uncommon to find two people who started off as friends, become lovers, and destroy the friendship in the process.


Janeway couldn't risk that.

That's an argument why they didn't go through with it, not an argument that there was never any sexual attraction or romantic interest there in the first place, as exodus stated.

Too bad I didn't state that there was "never" any sexual attraction.

 

[DevilEyes]

Too bad I didn't state that there was "never" any sexual attraction.

My bad. When you said that women see their friends as brothers, I assumed that it meant they weren't sexually attracted to them. I figured that people aren't normally sexually attracted to their siblings. But I don't have one, so I wouldn't know.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

LOL! I wasn't referring to the "tattoo." I was referring to her phyiscal reassurance at the end of this exchange. (Frequently seen in any number of youtube vids on the J/C subject.)

CHAKOTAY: Have you heard anything more from Q?
JANEWAY: No. I wish I could believe he's gone for good.
CHAKOTAY: I was wondering just what just what you meant when you said he made a personal request.
JANEWAY: (Rolls her eyes up )He wants to mate with me.
CHAKOTAY: I see.
JANEWAY: Obviously, it's out of the question. And I suspect it's a smoke screen. Knowing Q, he's probably got some hidden agenda.
CHAKOTAY: Maybe.
JANEWAY: Chakotay. (Stands up to place a hand on his shoulder?)
CHAKOTAY: I know I don't have any right to feel this way, but this bothers the hell out of me.

They are just so sweet together... until that dang fool Q shows up! I suspect her peckish reaction to Q was partly due to his interrupting them.

 

[RyuRoots]

I voted option 4. Janeway's true love is coffee.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Janeway's true love is coffee.

Point taken.

Coffee AND Voyager!

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I voted option 4. Janeway's true love is coffee.

Of course! Yes, I change my answer to this. It's absolutely true.

(Seriously...)

 

[exodus]

You've been told wrong. A woman can have male friends that she thinks of as brothers and that she has no romantic interest in, but she can also have male friends that she could possibly get romantically involved with. I tend to think that you can't really have a serious romantic relationship with someone if that someone is not able to be your friend, among other things. There are male/female friendships that are free of any romantic overtones, and then there are those where there's sexual tension/some mutual attraction, or attraction on the part of one of them. It's not that uncommon to find two people who started off as friends and eventually became a couple - or those who really do remain friends after the breakup.

And it's not uncommon to find two people who started off as friends, become lovers, and destroy the friendship in the process.


Janeway couldn't risk that.

That's an argument why they didn't go through with it, not an argument that there was never any sexual attraction or romantic interest there in the first place, as exodus stated.

You've been told wrong. A woman can have male friends that she thinks of as brothers and that she has no romantic interest in, but she can also have male friends that she could possibly get romantically involved with. I tend to think that you can't really have a serious romantic relationship with someone if that someone is not able to be your friend, among other things. There are male/female friendships that are free of any romantic overtones, and then there are those where there's sexual tension/some mutual attraction, or attraction on the part of one of them. It's not that uncommon to find two people who started off as friends and eventually became a couple - or those who really do remain friends after the breakup.

Janeway was friends with Tuvok, and there were no signs of any romantic feelings from either of them. She was friends with Chakotay, but there was obvious sexual tension and some open flirting (in "Resolutions") there.

In relation to the topic at hand, it doesn't seem I'm wrong at all. Janeway called Chakotay "good friend" and didn't persue any romantic relationship with him. He was a friend and only a friend.


"Resolutions" was years ago in their journey and they were dealing with the idea of never being in command positions again, not to mention they were the only humans living on the planet. Who else were they going to pair up with? Besides a monkey, they didn't even have anybody but each other to even talk too.
We saw at the conclusion of that ep. and once they were back on Voyager, any and all flirting & ideas of any romantic relationship stopped. I'm sure if it was Tuvok stuck with Janeway in "Resolutions" the same things would have eventually happened. Just like in "Gravity", Tuvok shared his affections for another woman besides his wife when faced with living the rest of his life lost & without her.

I dunno, if I got stranded on a deserted planet with a friend, my first thoughts would be "How do we get out of here" and "How do we survive here", not "Now I must mate with you, since we're the only two people here - so let's start by giving you a big romantic speech about my feelings for you".

Besides, Janeway was able to endure a year and a half (or whatever time had passed) without 'mating' with anyone (and a few years more after this episode), so why would she be in a rush to hook up with someone, even if it was someone she supposedly had never felt any sexual attraction for or considered in a romantic way?

Look, I'm not a J/C shipper. I just don't want to pretend that I don't see sexual tension (clearly intended by the writers, and conveyed by what we saw on the screen, whatever the actors say in interviews) when it's staring me in the face.

I already covered all of this with this thread.
For the second time, I didn't say "never".

 

[exodus]

Too bad I didn't state that there was "never" any sexual attraction.

My bad. When you said that women see their friends as brothers, I assumed that it meant they weren't sexually attracted to them. I figured that people aren't normally sexually attracted to their siblings. But I don't have one, so I wouldn't know.

Did you watch Voyager?
Janeway calls Chakotay "good friend" and year or two after "Resolutions" and all chances of romantic involvement is off the table at that point. So yes, too Janeway at that point Chakotay is more like a "brother" than sex partner.

 

[T'Girl]

Haven't we all had a good friend where the relationship could have developed into something else, but we choose either consciously or unconsciously for this not to happen, as we wanted to keep the friendship the way it was?

There are male/female friendships that are free of any romantic overtones, and then there are those where there's sexual tension

But sexual and romantic relationships do not automatically have to overlap. It's possible to have long and wonderful relationships with your male friends that does include sexual activity and doesn't include the traditional romantic component. Outside the bedroom (or where ever), the relationship is identical to the one you share with all your other (non-sex) friends, no closer, no different.

It's possible that Janeway had a somewhat low sex drive, combined with an awareness of her position on a ship with likely less privacy than you might think. Chakotay on the other hand struck me as a man with at least normal, if not superior sex drive. He just came off that way (DevilEyes back me up here), we know that they met in her quarters for meals and perhaps private official meetings too, some of these meetings might have included occasional sex as well.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Friends with benefits... maybe...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Never been on a walking tour in Deliverance have you?

Hells, I saw a Doctor Phil (maybe? they all look the same.) where they were dna testing couples that look a like who'd either been adopted or were progeny from sperm donation... They were told, this married couple, who already looked like they had 11 toes each, that they were also brother and sister, but adamantly the two of them replied in the face of the horrible truth, that they needed to stay together and they would continue fucking and they still wanted children.

We are monkeys.

It's because of unwashable memories like this that I so rarely watch day time talkshows.

You lot just wrote two pages while I was sleeping.

Women say "no" usually because men smell bad or wrong. They think with their noses and we think with our penises, there's no shame in either process. And since this is a society without money, you would think that would make it easier to not be undesirable if women have less yard sticks to measure your "worth" against as a suitor? A woman is not going to keep a man who loves her utterly as Just a friend unless she is a complete monster or she's blind to how cleverly men hide thier feelings. It's not fair, and it always ends humorously. Not for them... but for other people looking in from the outside, it's usually hilarious.

This is why Chuckles was a wuss.

He should have killed the monkey.

A fricking monkey was standing between him and, what did they call it on 30 rock? "True settling-for love"? Some critter that if she hadn't formed a bond with so quickly, they probably would have eaten after a couple nights of thinking that they could make it as vegetarians without replicated pretend meat to keep them sated. At the very least catch it, and release the bugger into a new environment a few days walk away that it can't find it's way back into the crook of her tender embrace... It's like he never took notes while watching Neelix's domination tactics over the female gender.

I mean seriously, how many monkeys was he going to have to kill (Relocate. You sicken me.) before she decided that he was the monkey for her?

As far as their state of desperation went he didn't even try How I met Your Mother's "The naked man"!!??

?

Chuckles might not have been gagging for coitus at all you realize.

If he had his spirit guide machine, which is probably no worse than the sexcapades happening on the holodeck aboard Voyager, then obviously Chuckles was not having intercourse with billions of possible willing sexual partners including a template of Kathryn Janeway, unless he was, which might possibly explain how he could be so patient with being rejected so well repeatedly and constantly that he should have moved on and set up a camp in the valley next over if he had even a sliver of self respect.

On the other hand even if kathy was the most glorious sex camel in the universe (stores sex, like a camel stores water, get with it.) rather than all nude submitting to the Indian who seems to have have circled his wagons around her into a fricking eclipse, knowing Kathryn as only I know Kathryn, she would have killed or almost killed "her friend" for his spirit guide machine if he wouldn't share it with her.

She would have killed him to have sex with her own imagination rather than accidentally possibly having his babies, and honestly? Who would want to bring a baby into that world?

Did the doctor pack contraception hyposprays in with the medical supplies? Because he was either going to assume that they would need contraception or it was massively unlikely given who his captain was that they would need any at all,and in either case, he could have been wrong.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

^

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which bit is the most preposterous?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I am tempted to just respond "yes".

 

[Guy Gardener]

LOL!

She wasn't interested, but was he only interested because she was the only woman on the planet?

They were on the planet for 2 months.

If he'd had the forethought to start making alcohol (it's really, very, very easy.)for some special occasion, like that it's fricking boring, they could have woken up the morning after not being completely responsibleible for some very poor decision making.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

LOL!

She wasn't interested, but was he only interested because she was the only woman on the planet?

They were on the planet for 2 months.

If he'd had the forethought to start making alcohol (it's really, very, very easy.)for some special occasion, like that it's fricking boring, they could have woken up the morning after not being completely responsibleible for some very poor decision making.

Okay, that I can somewhat go along with. But, I only go along with it because it would take an inebriated Kathryn to make that kind of relationship altering decision.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But could Kathryn admit that it was a mistake and move on, or would she so to speak dig her heals in? Women (men too, but mostly women, but not all women.)don't like to think they "gave it away" for the wrong reasons like expedience or convenience and will after the fact need to justify their sexual proclivity by "pretending" that the person they just slept with was actually a good choice and totally worthy of taking what she had to give, even if they have to spend months retroactively rebuilding some poor bastard from the table manners up, that whatever hard work turns their "boyfriend" into finally some one they'd look at twice, they're now finally not ashamed they looked at once, and ipso facto he must have always been at least that prospectful or nothing would have happened in the first place.

On the other hand from a lads perspective, you're a cad if you sleep with a women who is drunker than you are, it's important ethically speaking to drink as much or more than she does to make sure you're only equally taking advantage of one another but the true sophistry doesn't start till the next morning...

Sure she can excuse sleeping with a bloke indiscriminately with out finding out all his alarming deal-breaking qualities because she was drunk, so, before she notices you are thick or ugly, you have to try and sleep with her in the morning again after she has sobered up that she can't say all her decisions were cloudy but still caught up in the momentum of the previous night before that she's not figured out yet that she's too good for you... Men only want women who are too good for them, but it's not exactly the saddest thing in the world getting what we deserve.

 

[DevilEyes]

Too bad I didn't state that there was "never" any sexual attraction.

My bad. When you said that women see their friends as brothers, I assumed that it meant they weren't sexually attracted to them. I figured that people aren't normally sexually attracted to their siblings. But I don't have one, so I wouldn't know.

Did you watch Voyager?

Janeway calls Chakotay "good friend" and year or two after "Resolutions" and all chances of romantic involvement is off the table at that point. So yes, too Janeway at that point Chakotay is more like a "brother" than sex partner.

According to you. There are other people in this forum who seem to think differently. Which must mean that didn't watch Voyager.

According to you, if someone calls a person "good friend" all chances of romantic involvement are off the table. According to you, this means that people are like siblings. According to you, Janeway thought about Chakotay as a brother halfway through the show. All of the above are just your opinions that people might agree or disagree with.