Merritt Butrick/David Marcus

[trevanian]

Don't feel bad, I never realized the original TMP poster was by John Berkey, a guy whose work I adore. I thought THAT was Minor's, though admittedly not in his style.

 

[Shazam!]

And, with all due respect to the second Saavik, they did pretty much the same thing to her one movie later when it was apparent, and I know this isn't universal opinion, but it was apparent she just didn't have the spark that Alley had.

The recasting of Saavik always bugged me. At first, you think "Okay, well she was in TWOK so naturally will be on the Enterprise as it returns to spacedock" but the first time we see her in TSFS she's on the Grissom. In theory, that character could've been anyone.

 

[Chrisisall]

The whole David Marcus-as-Kirk's-son thing was the biggest mistake in the ST franchise IMO.
OOoohKayyy- here goes my whole gorram Trek Rant-

The intro to David Marcus KILLED the idea of exploring new worlds & tied 2 & 3 to a simple revenge story that bled into 4 & 6 and effed up everything IMO. 4 & 6 were good despite that inclusion/reference, but it all could have been SO much better than that.
This is the primary reason the JJ's flick was so exciting for me- as lame as the adventure of the "red matter" storyline might have been, there is the possibility of greatness to come! EXPLORE! Don't just revenge! Is Spock emotional? Will Kirk become the commander we have come to know & love? Will Uhura be naked?
These are burning questions that give me amazing hope for the franchise!!!

 

[dru]

There's a chapter in John Vornholt's TNG novel Genesis Wave: Book One where Picard reads all the top secret reports about Project Genesis from over the years. Carol files a report sometime in the immediate aftermath of TSFS where she takes the blame on herself for David's use of protomatter, and declares the project a failure. Several decades later, a Starfleet scientist takes another look at the project and decides that it was precisely what you mentioned above — the device went off inside a nebula and the Genesis Planet was unstable because it was formed out of congealed nebula dust — that caused the problems. He suggests that if they were to build another device exactly the way the Marcuses built it, and tested it properly (e.g. the dead moon from Carol's presentation), it would probably work.

Good that at least somewhere this OBVIOUS point was brought forth. This has always been a much better explanation to my mind.

 

[dru]

At first, you think "Okay, well she was in TWOK so naturally will be on the Enterprise as it returns to spacedock" but the first time we see her in TSFS she's on the Grissom. In theory, that character could've been anyone.

And it really should've been when they gave her that gawd-awful hair style and Nimoy decided to have Curtis play emotionless, rather than the instruction her predecessor had been given.

 

[Praetor]

in the late 80s early 90s Entertainment Tonight did a feature on Hollywood actors with HIV, they interviewed a young guy who i recall as been in a Baywatch episode , playing a character who had seen a UFO , during the interview He mentioned he had been Merritts partner and that was when i first heard that Merritt had died.

ild love to track that interview down and find out if the actor concerned is still with us (i think he may have geusted on square pegs as well but not sure...

Just did an internet search based on "baywatch /UFO " and can confirm that the actor i am thinking of was Tom Villard who sadly died from AIDS complications in
1994

had completely missed him as Prylar Bek in DS9

(damn dont you just hate the internet sometimes ....

anyway , it was definatly him on Entertainment Tonight talking about his relationship with Merritt , and Merritts death

Wow... that is pretty surprising. I'd kill to see that ET interview. Huh. I've never heard of this Tom Villard. I mean, I vaguely remembered Prylar Bek (mostly by name.)

As to Merritt, back in the day a friend of mine managed to get onto the Trek II set and saw the Regula One set (which he said was very cheap), and met Merritt somewhere around the same time, if not the same day. I'm not going to go into the particulars but his being "troubled" wouldn't surprise me given what my friend related to me. Again, this was around '82...his later, albeit short, life might've been very normal.

The gossip in me wants to know what your friend saw, because I bet I know. But my conscience says to leave it alone.

I think it's rather startling if you compare how he looked in 1982

to 1988 on Trek

there was some definite decline. He was pretty skinny on 'Pegs' compared to how he looked in TWoK and TSFS anyway, so it's probably a fair comparison. Although it's something of a personal quest of mine to find every image I can of him, those TNG screenshots depress me.

IIRC, HIV first appeared in the US in 1978 in NYC, so he could have potentially gotten it anytime after and of course not known it until it had taken most of its toll.

Well to be fair those pictures were taken from different angles and in different lighting and he was playing something of a drug addict on TNG but Johnny was just tired, totality tired, totality.

True enough. And the song reference makes me laugh and is a good excuse to quote the photos.

Praetor: Don't let it depress you. I've had somebody close to me become a shadow of their former self and go before their time... so I know what I'm talking about here. All I see between those comparison shots are an actor who's aged slightly and been given a very decent addict make-up job. Eye liner and maybe next to no sleep that night, so they could get into the role and pull off a great performance. I don't doubt Merrick Butrick went the way people describe. I can believe it. But you're certainly not seeing it in these photographs.

I hope Jonathan is okay... he hasn't posted in a while...

I'm with you on that. I was hoping he'd have stopped by to chime in. Last activity seems to be about three weeks ago. Maybe he's just taking a break from being online or something. TrekBBS can get a little addictive at times!

I didn't mean to worry you guys.

But it's nice to know you care.

I'm fine, just getting used to being employed again. Sitting in front of a computer all day at work has made me not want to do it at home. But, hopefully I've adjusted now and shouldn't make such rare appearances, 'kay?

But I think I did get a little TrekBBS addicted while I was unemployed.

The recasting of Saavik always bugged me. At first, you think "Okay, well she was in TWOK so naturally will be on the Enterprise as it returns to spacedock" but the first time we see her in TSFS she's on the Grissom. In theory, that character could've been anyone.

I think that's more the crux of it. It should have been both Doctors Marcus, really. It would have been interesting to have the survivor of Genesis be Carol Marcus. Might have been better for Kirk's growth, too.

Of course, then Carol might have had to help out with Spock's (ahem) little problem.

 

[Tallguy]

I have been watching TWOK a lot lately (it's like a sickness). I'm always amazed at the performances Meyer got from these actors. (Between II and III Shatner was never better.)

But the one scene I'm always shaking my head at is:

"They'll remember you in one breath with Newton, Einstein, Surak..."
"Thanks a lot. No respect for my offspring."
"Par for the course? Are you teaming up with me for bridge after dinner?"

Butrick doesn't seem to have ANY idea what the words he is saying mean. If he does, it's a very odd performance and he just doesn't seem comfortable with the lines. (Yes, I know, the character is supposed to be uncomfortable, but it's worse than that.)

Having said that, I tear up to this day when he says "I am proud - very proud - to be your son."

I've always been gratified that David's anti-Starfleet paranoia is never given a shred of credibility. Kind of surprising in 1982. (Of course by ST3 they're all idiots. And by Insurrection, they ARE the bad guys.)

Anyone who hasn't read the novels of TWOK and TSFS: They're worth reading just for David and Saavik alone.

Many of you have mentioned that you couldn't get Johnny Slash out of your heads when you watched David. I thought I was losing my mind, since I distinctly remember Square Pegs coming AFTER TWOK. September 27, 1982 – March 7, 1983. Ahhhhh, that's better. The Phoenix, otoh (Judson Scott) aired before.

 

[Pauln6]

The novelisations are defo worth it for the extra stuff on David & Saavik. TWOK had some very good scenes with the scientists on Regula One too. As good as the film is, the novelisation is a more rounded story.

 

[DonIago]

I was significantly disappointed when the movie novelizations lost the depth of backstory that they'd had during TWoK and TSFS. I think my favorite is still Carol's eulogies for the Regula One deceased.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The intro to David Marcus KILLED the idea of exploring new worlds & tied 2 & 3 to a simple revenge story

But they didn't know that at the time. With Nimoy playing Spock's death scene in II, there was every likelihood that Shatner could have refused to sign for ST III, and then it might have switched to a series of telemovies headed by Kirstie Alley and Merritt Butrick (heading a cast of whatever TOS second stringers decided to sign up), and using the "Phase II" scripts adapted for the new daughter-analog of Spock and son-of-Kirk.

In any case, the Genesis Project was the ultimate exploration of a "strange new world": one made by Federation scientists!

The Phoenix, otoh (Judson Scott) aired before.

Yep, and Judson Scott and his agent were convinced it was about to be picked up to be a long-running TV series, and JS was gonna be big, big, big!

 

[ST-One]

I didn't mean to worry you guys.

But it's nice to know you care.

I'm fine, just getting used to being employed again. Sitting in front of a computer all day at work has made me not want to do it at home. But, hopefully I've adjusted now and shouldn't make such rare appearances, 'kay?

But I think I did get a little TrekBBS addicted while I was unemployed.

Good to know you're okay.

Ah, what the hell... *hug*

 

[Praetor]

I have been watching TWOK a lot lately (it's like a sickness). I'm always amazed at the performances Meyer got from these actors. (Between II and III Shatner was never better.)

But the one scene I'm always shaking my head at is:

"They'll remember you in one breath with Newton, Einstein, Surak..."
"Thanks a lot. No respect for my offspring."
"Par for the course? Are you teaming up with me for bridge after dinner?"

Butrick doesn't seem to have ANY idea what the words he is saying mean. If he does, it's a very odd performance and he just doesn't seem comfortable with the lines. (Yes, I know, the character is supposed to be uncomfortable, but it's worse than that.)

You know, I'm forced to agree. That scene has always felt... weird. I get the vibe that David was supposed to be distracted. On the surface, he's worried. But then it's like there's something beneath that.

I mean, you find out later that Carol isn't being completely forthcoming with David about the whole Starfleet dealings (i.e. her, and his, relationship to Kirk) and one might retcon that David was nervous because of the protomatter angle revealed in TSFS.

I wonder what Meyer really intended though?

Having said that, I tear up to this day when he says "I am proud - very proud - to be your son."

As someone who took a while to feel that way about his own father, so do I.

I've always been gratified that David's anti-Starfleet paranoia is never given a shred of credibility. Kind of surprising in 1982. (Of course by ST3 they're all idiots. And by Insurrection, they ARE the bad guys.)

Yeah, it's logical to have it in there, since people felt that way about the RW military at the time, but it's nice that Trek did the Trek thing in TWOK and didn't go there with it.

Anyone who hasn't read the novels of TWOK and TSFS: They're worth reading just for David and Saavik alone.

I'm buying, I'm buying. Sheesh.

Many of you have mentioned that you couldn't get Johnny Slash out of your heads when you watched David. I thought I was losing my mind, since I distinctly remember Square Pegs coming AFTER TWOK. September 27, 1982 – March 7, 1983. Ahhhhh, that's better. The Phoenix, otoh (Judson Scott) aired before.

Not having been born when either came out, I must defer.

The intro to David Marcus KILLED the idea of exploring new worlds & tied 2 & 3 to a simple revenge story

But they didn't know that at the time. With Nimoy playing Spock's death scene in II, there was every likelihood that Shatner could have refused to sign for ST III, and then it might have switched to a series of telemovies headed by Kirstie Alley and Merritt Butrick (heading a cast of whatever TOS second stringers decided to sign up), and using the "Phase II" scripts adapted for the new daughter-analog of Spock and son-of-Kirk.

Yep, I think that's what they were aiming for. Setup for a torch pass, deferred to Nimoy's willingness to come back and their ability to get Shatner again.

Yep, and Judson Scott and his agent were convinced it was about to be picked up to be a long-running TV series, and JS was gonna be big, big, big!

I've always wondered: what was up with both him and Merritt being in TNG's "Symbiosis" anyway? Were they going for a TWOK nostalgia thing?

In any case, Judson was a decent Romulan in VGR's "Message in a Bottle."

Good to know you're okay.

Ah, what the hell... *hug*

Thanks! *hugs back*

Also, Merritt's birthday is this Thursday, September 3rd. He would have been 50 years old.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

With Nimoy playing Spock's death scene in II, there was every likelihood that Shatner could have refused to sign for ST III, and then it might have switched to a series of telemovies headed by Kirstie Alley and Merritt Butrick (heading a cast of whatever TOS second stringers decided to sign up), and using the "Phase II" scripts adapted for the new daughter-analog of Spock and son-of-Kirk.

Ian, with all due respect, your conclusion doesn't make sense.

Bear with me here.

"Phase II" was a Roddenberry/Povill project. Neither was attached to Star Trek by 1982. Povill had moved on, and Roddenberry had been shown the door. Star Trek was in Harve Bennett's hands, and if Bennett wanted to do a series of television movies, why would he resurrect scripts from a failed television series that he had had zero involvement in? Just because Saavik could be the analogue of Ilia or Xon and David the analogue of Decker in a "Phase II" script doesn't mean that Bennett would automatically pick up that script and run with it. Chances are Roddenberry would have flogged his time-travel script, just as he did for each film, and chances are Bennett would have said, "Thanks, but no thanks" and moved on to a story that interested him.

 

[Red Ranger]

What I find interesting is that David Marcus and Saavik were supposed to represent the next generation after Kirk and Spock, and this was years before TNG, which, of course, was not literally the "next" generation, but a "new" generation, decades removed. With the exception of Peter Preston, the other cadets were just there, part of the background.

Making David a civilian scientist kind of mucked up that idea, of course. Saavik was Spock's protege. Perhaps what they needed was a young officer who was Kirk's protege, rather than introducing David.

I also wonder if David would have joined Starfleet if Carol had let Kirk be a part of David's life, a fear she expressed when they were in the Genesis cave.

Red Ranger

 

[DonIago]

I think according to the novelizations Carol did end up feeling to some degree like Kirk stole David away to Starfleet, as he ends up on the mission to the Genesis Planet...and, well, then he's dead.

Granted it's not Kirk's fault, but if my son met his mom, took off with her for a few weeks, and got killed, I wouldn't take it well either.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Star Trek was in Harve Bennett's hands, and if Bennett wanted to do a series of television movies, why would he resurrect scripts from a failed television series that he had had zero involvement in?

Highly likely that he would ignore them, but the scripts were already paid for. Similarly, stock footage from TMP was used in ST II because it was already paid for.

Just because Saavik could be the analogue of Ilia or Xon and David the analogue of Decker in a "Phase II" script doesn't mean that Bennett would automatically pick up that script and run with it.

Saavik was already an young analog of Spock, especially with Spock being dead. AFAIK, Harve Bennett hadn't even looked at the "Phase II" scripts, but they had enough trouble coming up with a cohesive script for ST II. A series of telemovies, which was one of the plans for future Spockless Star Treks, would have seen a mad scramble for new stories, and "Phase II" was already Spockless.

I have discussed this with Susan Sackett, who had to review all those scripts again for GR and Paramount when they feared the writers' strike would delay Season Two of TNG. It always stuck in Paramount's craw that they had a pile of unused scripts that had been paid for, and two "Phase II" stories eventually became TNG scripts.

Making David a civilian scientist kind of mucked up that idea, of course. Saavik was Spock's protege. Perhaps what they needed was a young officer who was Kirk's protege, rather than introducing David.

Which was the point of Will Decker, son of the late, great Matt Decker, in "Phase II".

So, the ongoing telemovie adventures would have focused on Saavik, protege of the late, great Spock, and David, son of the revered Admiral Kirk. I don't think they had any plans as to how a civilian scientist would fit into Starfleet stories, just that they would have a will-they/won't-they romantic pairing. Ironically, Kirstie Alley ended up in that kind of situation in "Cheers". The K/S fanfic fans would have had a field day with ongoing David/Saavik stories!

 

[Praetor]

I tend to agree with Therin's assessment, and of course as usual have to defer to his firsthand knowledge.

Personally, I see casting David as a civilian scientist and Saavik as a somewhat impetuous (if regulation quoting) Vulcan Starfleet officer as a nice reversal of the basic characteristics of Spock and Kirk. To me, out of the pair Saavik is the leader, and I think that's rather cool. It's not just Jim Kirk Jr. and Spock Jr. like Decker and Xon were basically meant to be.

 

[Tom Riley]

So... It was only a few years ago that I found out about David Marcus and T'Jon being played by the same person(which had turned out to be a little bit of an irony for me, as I had thought the characters were both rather attractive before knowing they were both Merritt Butrick), but this is actually the first I had heard of Merritt having died, let alone that he had died of AIDS. So I must be living in a closet or something, seeing as how he's been dead for quite a while... well, for a few months longer than I've even been alive...

I haven't even seen TSFS in such a long time. It's barely within my memory... It's been at least 14 years... It's been about that long since I've seen TWoK as well, but for some reason I can remember pretty much all of TWoK and next to none of TSFS. That being said, I did read the novelization of TSFS around 7 or 8 years ago, and I didn't even want to finish the book once David died. When he was stabbed I just kept thinking that "no he'll be fine, He's Kirk's son, why would they kill him? He just found him..." Then I read the part where it mentioned that the Klingon blades were designed to do more damage coming out than going in... At that point I was just like...

Anyways, sorry, not trying to siderail the current discussion.

 

[Therin of Andor]

When he was stabbed I just kept thinking that "no he'll be fine, He's Kirk's son, why would they kill him? He just found him..."

There was a great interview with Harve Bennett after ST III came out ("Starlog"?) where he talked about karmic balance in scriptwriting. ie. In order for Kirk to get Spock back from the dead, he had to lose even more: the Enterprise plus David.

 

[Tom Riley]

When he was stabbed I just kept thinking that "no he'll be fine, He's Kirk's son, why would they kill him? He just found him..."

There was a great interview with Harve Bennett after ST III came out ("Starlog"?) where he talked about karmic balance in scriptwriting. ie. In order for Kirk to get Spock back from the dead, he had to lose even more: the Enterprise plus David.

Yeah... It makes sense... But I still didn't like it lol