Measure of a Man: what would really have happened in such a scenario?

[at Quark's]

So, in Measure of a Man, we have this hearing to decide whether Data is Starfleet property or not.

The JAG officer being notably short on personnel 'recruits' the two most senior officers of the Enterprise as prosecutor and defender. The catch of course being that they personally are both firmly in the 'defender' camp, so that Riker gets to face a difficult dilemma, since the only way he can give his friend Data a fighting chance is by prosecuting him and doing his best to get the opposite result.

Sounds a bit contrived to me (though I appreciate the situation Riker has been put in). So I was wondering if there were real-world legal situations that even remotely resemble the bind Riker's in. Are there (judicial) situations where the rules demand that someone represents his opponent's party, or, if not, what would have been a more realistic depiction of Starfleet resolving this issue?

 

[Mojochi]

I think the closest parallel to the Data legal case would be a competency hearing, where the attorney arguing against knows or suspects the defendant is actually competent, but argues against, for the sake of their client, who might be trying to use the precedent for some legal ground in custody or other rights etc...

I honestly don't know why the court in Data's case couldn't just assign counsel over subspace communication. A case made by an attorney on a view screen is just as valid as one made in person, imho

 

[Snaploud]

I find it hard to believe that this issue wasn't settled (one way or the other) by the time Data graduated from the academy. He was studying to be an officer, which by definition would mean ordering humans around (potentially in dangerous or ethically dubious circumstances). It's ridiculous to trust Data to be second-in-command of your flagship and still have legal questions regarding his rights as a sentient being.

 

[Mojochi]

I find it hard to believe that this issue wasn't settled (one way or the other) by the time Data graduated from the academy. He was studying to be an officer, which by definition would mean ordering humans around (potentially in dangerous or ethically dubious circumstances). It's ridiculous to trust Data to be second-in-command of your flagship and still have legal questions regarding his rights as a sentient being.

^Yeah, that's a pretty big hurdle to get past. That he joined Starfleet of his own free will, in itself, recognizes the possession of a will. If someone recognizes your choice to do as you will, then they recognize you have choice, i.e. autonomy, independence etc... Case closed.

Given how prized the technology in Data is, it's also pretty odd that it took all this time before anyone tried to make some kind of dimwitted salvage claim to him

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

I find it hard to believe that this issue wasn't settled (one way or the other) by the time Data graduated from the academy. He was studying to be an officer, which by definition would mean ordering humans around (potentially in dangerous or ethically dubious circumstances). It's ridiculous to trust Data to be second-in-command of your flagship and still have legal questions regarding his rights as a sentient being.

This sums it up extremely well. By the time Data made his way through the Academy, you'd best know damn well if he's an able, competent officer or a household appliance.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In The Night Of, the prosecutors were convinced the main character was innocent before the conclusion of the trial but kept prosecuting because he was still the suspect they had the best argument against. Lawyers and prosecutors do this all the time, just if they were personal friends with the defendant they would recuse themselves.

 

[at Quark's]

There was such an evaluation at entering the academy, though.

MADDOX: How have you been, Data?
DATA: My condition does not alter with the passage of time, Commander.
PICARD: The two of you are acquainted?
MADDOX: Yes, I evaluated Data when it first applied to the Academy.
DATA: And was the sole member of the committee to oppose my entrance on the grounds that I was not a sentient being.

It almost sounds like Starfleet had already tacitly agreed on him being a sentient being (or at least being a fully capable starfleet officer), but that Maddox just couldn't give up, because of his ambitions.

 

[Mojochi]

It almost sounds like Starfleet had already tacitly agreed on him being a sentient being (or at least being a fully capable starfleet officer), but that Maddox just couldn't give up, because of his ambitions.

That's what makes it even more confusing. From the line you quoted, it appears like the only concern in Data's preliminary evaluation was solely to determine whether he'd be capable of Starfleet duty, & that his rights are somehow a separate issue. However, one would think that sentience or sapience would be a pretty big prerequisite for serving in Starfleet, & therefore the recognition of personhood would be a foregone conclusion, once the determination of ability to serve was reached, but if this new ruling can supersede that, then it suggests that the issue of sentience was overlooked at his initial evaluation & he was given a pass without that being a necessary trait for enrollment.

 

[Nyotarules]

Anyone read the Myriad universe novel where Data lost the case?

 

[gillmanjr]

I've always had an issue with the very premise of this episode from the start. I don't understand how Data could even have been put in this position. He CHOSE to join Starfleet, just like every other officer. How could he even have been considered property?

 

[BillJ]

It would've never been settled at the Starbase at the End of the Universe. Not only that, Starfleet would've appealed the case all the way to the Federation's highest courts if it felt Maddox's experiments were that crucial.

A nice episode that really makes no real world sense.

 

[Nyotarules]

It would've never been settled at the Starbase at the End of the Universe. Not only that, Starfleet would've appealed the case all the way to the Federation's highest courts if it felt Maddox's experiments were that crucial.

A nice episode that really makes no real world sense.

Crucial or not the state does not have the right to force a citizen to undergo a medical procedure when the citizen does not have an infectious disease. And being in Starfleet proves if Data is good enough to willingly choose to die for the Federation he is good enough to choose to live for it. Maddox was pushing for a dangerous precedent.

 

[BillJ]

Crucial or not the state does not have the right to force a citizen to undergo a medical procedure when the citizen does not have an infectious disease. And being in Starfleet proves if Data is good enough to willingly choose to die for the Federation he is good enough to choose to live for it. Maddox was pushing for a dangerous precedent.

I'm not arguing right or wrong of the situation. I'm talking about what would've happened in the real world under such a scenario.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm not arguing right or wrong of the situation. I'm talking about what would've happened in the real world under such a scenario.

Ok but I doubt the case would make it to court, unless its an autocratic state running things. Sounds like a 3/5ths human case all over again.

 

[BillJ]

Ok but I doubt the case would make it to court, unless it an autocratic state running things. Sounds like a 3/5ths human case all over again.

The Federation already has draconian laws regarding eugenics/genetic engineering. Who really knows how they feel about AI?

 

[Nyotarules]

The Federation already has draconian laws regarding eugenics/genetic engineering. Who really knows how they feel about AI?

The Federation is racist and speciest, I would not be surprised if they forced Julian Bashir to be sterilised.

 

[Kor]

It's odd that the regulations allowed for officers without law degrees to serve as legal counsel at all. But if it wasn't that way, then we would have gotten a completely different episode, with Picard and Riker watching some guest lawyers of the week from the sidelines.

Kor

 

[Mojochi]

It's odd that the regulations allowed for officers without law degrees to serve as legal counsel at all. But if it wasn't that way, then we would have gotten a completely different episode, with Picard and Riker watching some guest lawyers of the week from the sidelines.

Kor

It's another of those examples of Starfleet & 24th century humanity being so advanced that their training covers an almost absurdly wide ranging number of fields. Engineering, astrophysics, biology, assorted other sciences, diplomacy, law, military & combat tactics, the history of countless cultures & I'm probably forgetting some. Hell, if you go into medicine, and end up commanding a Starship like the Pasteur, I imagine you have to know everything about everything. How some of these people had spare time to learn to play a musical instrument, even as just a hobby, is totally beyond me

 

[Kirk Prime]

Everyone is entitled to a legal defense, and sometimes, people are assigned cases they do not want. Lawyers are required to zealously represent their client and do their best, so you can't really take a dive.

 

[Jedman67]

It would've never been settled at the Starbase at the End of the Universe. Not only that, Starfleet would've appealed the case all the way to the Federation's highest courts if it felt Maddox's experiments were that crucial.

A nice episode that really makes no real world sense.

That's pretty much the definition of TNG...