Maybe a 24 century Excelsior still packs a lot of firepower?

[Knight Templar]

What about "All Good Things"?

Both the Enterprise-D and the Pasteur are capable of Warp 13.

And "All Good Things" is just as canonical as "Threshhold".

 

[SonOfMogh]

Warp 10 is a theoretical "infinite speed", if you make it to warp 10 you occupy all points of the universe simultaneously. Warp 10 is the exact opposite of 'standing still'.

If you were travelling fast enough to fly from Earth to the Dominion homeworld in 1 second you would not be travelling even a fraction of warp 10. If you fly to the Andromeda Galaxy and back in 1 second you are not travelling a fraction of warp 10.

If the designers of the Excelsior believed the ship was supposed to work in this manner they wouldn't be worried about the Enterprise's speed records, they'd have effectively created a transporter to anywhere and would have conquered the galaxy. And then turned into horny amphibians.

 

[YARN]

What about "All Good Things"?

Both the Enterprise-D and the Pasteur are capable of Warp 13.

And "All Good Things" is just as canonical as "Threshhold".

And in that possible future supplied (manufactured?) by Q what we see is that starships can now break what Paris calls the maximum warp barrier and transwarp barrier.

Ergo,

There's no necessary contradiction here. They call it warp 13, others might call it transwarp factor "X". Similarly, you could say that a plane is traveling at 761 MPH or 1,225 km, or 661.5 knots or (if at sea-level under the right conditions) Mach 1.

 

[SonOfMogh]

What about "All Good Things"?

Both the Enterprise-D and the Pasteur are capable of Warp 13.

And "All Good Things" is just as canonical as "Threshhold".

And in that possible future supplied (manufactured?) by Q what we see is that starships can now break what Paris calls the maximum warp barrier and transwarp barrier.

Ergo,

There's no necessary contradiction here. They call it warp 13, others might call it transwarp factor "X". Similarly, you could say that a plane is traveling at 761 MPH or 1,225 km, or 661.5 knots or (if at sea-level under the right conditions) Mach 1.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your post here, but you are aware that "Warp 13" in AGT was definitely a slower speed than "Warp 10" in Threshold??

I know this because in AGT they had travel times and didn't arrive places instantly.

It's clear that they have either recalibrated the warp scale in Q's future, or they're using a different type of warp drive. Whatever they are calling "warp 13" may well be faster that the 24th century's "warp 9.975", but it's clearly slower than instant travel. Paris saw the Klingons/ Earth/ Kazon, at the same time in that episode. How his mind processed this is another matter.

 

[YARN]

Warp 10 is a theoretical "infinite speed", if you make it to warp 10 you occupy all points of the universe simultaneously. Warp 10 is the exact opposite of 'standing still'.

If you were travelling fast enough to fly from Earth to the Dominion homeworld in 1 second you would not be travelling even a fraction of warp 10. If you fly to the Andromeda Galaxy and back in 1 second you are not travelling a fraction of warp 10.

If the designers of the Excelsior believed the ship was supposed to work in this manner they wouldn't be worried about the Enterprise's speed records, they'd have effectively created a transporter to anywhere and would have conquered the galaxy. And then turned into horny amphibians.

It appears that our warp engineer has arrived.

I grant that "Threshold" treats warp 10 as an infinite velocity. I also grant that this cannot, therefore, be the same warp scale we see in AGT, since it does take time for them to get places. I was mistaken in thinking that AGT's warp 13 could be transwarp in the sense discussed on Voyager. I reviewed the script and you are correct.

What is relevant to this discussion is that there are precious few mentions of transwarp drive on Star Trek and both instances appear to be failures. In the case of Excelsior, we never here anything more about transwarp drive when we see this class of ship. The word does not appear again until Voyager - and it appears that this instance of the word refers to something else.

If anything, it appears that the Excelsior was a success despite the failure of transwarp drive.
______________________________________________

NOTE: Warp 10 being infinite speed really doesn't make any sense since you can't scale infinity the way you do finite amounts.

Infinity/2 = Infinity
Infinity + 1 = Infinity

There is nothing you can multiply or divide infinity by and get anything other than infinity. And this goes for the "exponential warp scale" for star trek.

If, for example, the warp scale were linear, then

Warp 10/2 = Warp 5

But as we saw above, this would still be infinity.

 

[Knight Templar]

And what about "Where No Man Has Gone Before"

When the Traveler increases the Enterprise's engine efficiently by an order of magnitude.

1) Geordi specifically says "we're exceeding Warp 10" or the same as.

Now

A) If Warp 10 is actually an "infinite velocity where every point in the universe is occupied at the same time" then "exceeding Warp 10" or "passing Warp 10" are completely meaningless concepts.

For that matter it would not even be able to registered by the Enterprise instruments.

Instead Geordi would be saying something like "We're passing Warp 9.99999995"

B) It is clear that despite "passing Warp 10" in that episode that the Enterprise crew does not occupy all points in the universe. They take a short but tangible amount of time to go several million (and later a couple of billion) light years.

Sorry. I'll take a halfway decent ST:TNG first season episode over a horrendously bad Voyager first season episode.

 

[YARN]

Sorry. I'll take a halfway decent ST:TNG first season episode over a horrendously bad Voyager first season episode.

Can't argue that one. You've got a fair point there.

 

[starburst]

For that matter, aside from the mention of "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" mentioned in the opening of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, what evidence do you have of the Excelsior being primarily an exploration vessel?

Which by the way never made sense anyway. Something mundane as "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" could probably be done more efficiently by unmanned probes.

We do have many references to unmanned probes in Star Trek (Tin Man being one example).

The thing with this is for story purposes its an obvious plot warming device for equipment the Enterprise used to modify a Photon Torpedo.

In universe wise maybe "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" is what a large part of Starfleet is up to at that time, at least for two different ships to have the equipment on board.

 

[C.E. Evans]

For that matter, aside from the mention of "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" mentioned in the opening of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, what evidence do you have of the Excelsior being primarily an exploration vessel?

Which by the way never made sense anyway. Something mundane as "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" could probably be done more efficiently by unmanned probes.

We do have many references to unmanned probes in Star Trek (Tin Man being one example).

The thing with this is for story purposes its an obvious plot warming device for equipment the Enterprise used to modify a Photon Torpedo.

In universe wise maybe "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" is what a large part of Starfleet is up to at that time, at least for two different ships to have the equipment on board.

Exploration involves more than just visiting new worlds and new civilizations, it also encompasses investigating any stellar phenomena--like the aforementioned gaseous anomalies--encountered during the course of the mission as well. The latter may not be as exciting as the former, but a ship may spend awhile doing a preliminary examination before moving on to the next point of interest (a science vessel can follow sometime later for more detailed and lengthy research).

I always took it that the Excelsior was on an exploration mission in the Beta Quadrant and was conducting some final routine scans of those gaseous anomalies as her final assignment before heading home. But like the original Enterprise, I also believe the Excelsior was really a multipurpose vessel and could really do all sorts of other missions as required by Starfleet. Out on the frontier, where the nearest Starfleet vessel could be days or even weeks away at high warp, you'd probably need a multimission ship that can do everything from exploration, to defense/interdiction, to even carrying supplies to a remote outpost or Federation colony.

 

[starburst]

For that matter, aside from the mention of "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" mentioned in the opening of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, what evidence do you have of the Excelsior being primarily an exploration vessel?

Which by the way never made sense anyway. Something mundane as "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" could probably be done more efficiently by unmanned probes.

We do have many references to unmanned probes in Star Trek (Tin Man being one example).

The thing with this is for story purposes its an obvious plot warming device for equipment the Enterprise used to modify a Photon Torpedo.

In universe wise maybe "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" is what a large part of Starfleet is up to at that time, at least for two different ships to have the equipment on board.

Exploration involves more than just visiting new worlds and new civilizations, it also encompasses investigating any stellar phenomena--like the aforementioned gaseous anomalies--encountered during the course of the mission as well. The latter may not be as exciting as the former, but a ship may spend awhile doing a preliminary examination before moving on to the next point of interest (a science vessel can follow sometime later for more detailed and lengthy research).

I always took it that the Excelsior was on an exploration mission in the Beta Quadrant and was conducting some final routine scans of those gaseous anomalies as her final assignment before heading home. But like the original Enterprise, I also believe the Excelsior was really a multipurpose vessel and could really do all sorts of other missions as required by Starfleet. Out on the frontier, where the nearest Starfleet vessel could be days or even weeks away at high warp, you'd probably need a multimission ship that can do everything from exploration, to defense/interdiction, to even carrying supplies to a remote outpost or Federation colony.

Exactly, at the end of the day we have to remember these are TV shows and movies so the capability of the ships are dependent on the writers and overall plot and as these different productions are written by different people they can vary greatly.

A case point being the Enterprise D, if you rewatch TNG and Generations they gave the impression the Galaxy class and the Enterprise herself was an impressive and powerful ship but you rarely saw her at her best. Compare the battles in these shows where she fires a handful of shots to the damage the Galaxy class ships do in the Dominion War.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The thing with this is for story purposes its an obvious plot warming device for equipment the Enterprise used to modify a Photon Torpedo.

In universe wise maybe "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" is what a large part of Starfleet is up to at that time, at least for two different ships to have the equipment on board.

Exploration involves more than just visiting new worlds and new civilizations, it also encompasses investigating any stellar phenomena--like the aforementioned gaseous anomalies--encountered during the course of the mission as well. The latter may not be as exciting as the former, but a ship may spend awhile doing a preliminary examination before moving on to the next point of interest (a science vessel can follow sometime later for more detailed and lengthy research).

I always took it that the Excelsior was on an exploration mission in the Beta Quadrant and was conducting some final routine scans of those gaseous anomalies as her final assignment before heading home. But like the original Enterprise, I also believe the Excelsior was really a multipurpose vessel and could really do all sorts of other missions as required by Starfleet. Out on the frontier, where the nearest Starfleet vessel could be days or even weeks away at high warp, you'd probably need a multimission ship that can do everything from exploration, to defense/interdiction, to even carrying supplies to a remote outpost or Federation colony.

Exactly, at the end of the day we have to remember these are TV shows and movies so the capability of the ships are dependent on the writers and overall plot and as these different productions are written by different people they can vary greatly.

A case point being the Enterprise D, if you rewatch TNG and Generations they gave the impression the Galaxy class and the Enterprise herself was an impressive and powerful ship but you rarely saw her at her best.

Well...I actually disagree that we rarely saw her at her best--I think more often than not we did. Even though she was only around for a short time, the Enterprise-D was involved in an impressive number of first contacts and incidents that were vital to the security of the Federation. She probably did more in just seven years than many ships do in their entire operational lifetimes. While her end was effectively the result of a well-placed sucker punch by a Klingon ship a fraction her size, no ship is invinicible, IMO. Goliaths have been taken down by Davids before (it's generally how Borg cubes are taken down).

Compare the battles in these shows where she fires a handful of shots to the damage the Galaxy class ships do in the Dominion War.

An in-universe idea could be that those Galaxy-class ships were newer and lessons learned from their earlier sister ships (namely Yamato, Odyssey, and Enterprise) were incorporated into them. At the time of the Enterprise's demise, the Galaxy-class might have still been considered a fairly young design only just entering its second block of production. By the time of the actual Dominion War, I think there are bound to have been improvements in the design.

 

[Knight Templar]

By the way, for those of you using Voyager episode "Threshhold" to combine the concepts of "transwarp" and "Warp 10" please note two other episodes.

Voyager- The Voth in "Distant Origins" are clearly referred to as having "transwarp".

Next Generation- the Borg in "Descent I & II" (and later in various Voyager episodes are referred as using "transwarp conduits".

Two points

1) Both the Voth and the Borg are more advanced than the Federation, but not overwhelmingly so.

2) Obviously, neither the Voth nor the Borg "occupy all points in the universe simultaneously" when using their tranwarp systems.

Conclusions:

"Transwarp" and "Warp 10" are two entirely different concepts. Configured together only by the bad writing in a single horrendously bad episode.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the general idea is that transwarp is Warp 10 and beyond, but it's really a catch-all phrase for any drive system that's faster than conventional warp. Even slipstream drive could be considered a form of transwarp in the same way warp drive is a form of FTL propulsion.

IIRC, the idea that Warp 10=infinite velocity really only appeared onscreen in VOY's "Threshold" and was more a violation of the TNG Technical Manual than any previous Trek TV episode or movie.

 

[starburst]

Exploration involves more than just visiting new worlds and new civilizations, it also encompasses investigating any stellar phenomena--like the aforementioned gaseous anomalies--encountered during the course of the mission as well. The latter may not be as exciting as the former, but a ship may spend awhile doing a preliminary examination before moving on to the next point of interest (a science vessel can follow sometime later for more detailed and lengthy research).

I always took it that the Excelsior was on an exploration mission in the Beta Quadrant and was conducting some final routine scans of those gaseous anomalies as her final assignment before heading home. But like the original Enterprise, I also believe the Excelsior was really a multipurpose vessel and could really do all sorts of other missions as required by Starfleet. Out on the frontier, where the nearest Starfleet vessel could be days or even weeks away at high warp, you'd probably need a multimission ship that can do everything from exploration, to defense/interdiction, to even carrying supplies to a remote outpost or Federation colony.

Exactly, at the end of the day we have to remember these are TV shows and movies so the capability of the ships are dependent on the writers and overall plot and as these different productions are written by different people they can vary greatly.

A case point being the Enterprise D, if you rewatch TNG and Generations they gave the impression the Galaxy class and the Enterprise herself was an impressive and powerful ship but you rarely saw her at her best.

Well...I actually disagree that we rarely saw her at her best--I think more often than not we did. Even though she was only around for a short time, the Enterprise-D was involved in an impressive number of first contacts and incidents that were vital to the security of the Federation. She probably did more in just seven years than many ships do in their entire operational lifetimes. While her end was effectively the result of a well-placed sucker punch by a Klingon ship a fraction her size, no ship is invinicible, IMO. Goliaths have been taken down by Davids before (it's generally how Borg cubes are taken down).

Compare the battles in these shows where she fires a handful of shots to the damage the Galaxy class ships do in the Dominion War.

An in-universe idea could be that those Galaxy-class ships were newer and lessons learned from their earlier sister ships (namely Yamato, Odyssey, and Enterprise) were incorporated into them. At the time of the Enterprise's demise, the Galaxy-class might have still been considered a fairly young design only just entering its second block of production. By the time of the actual Dominion War, I think there are bound to have been improvements in the design.

While its possible its still more down to the way the script was written and the effects budget.

For instance against the Borg the Enterprise wouldnt (or at least shouldnt) have a chance in a one on one engagement.

Compare this to her last battle where both Picard and the Klingons know a Bird of Prey is no match for a Galaxy Class starship, yet even with the advantage of firing through the Enterprises shields I have always found it strange that she didnt do more damage especially when you see how easily Birds of Prey were destroyed during DS9...but this is getting onto a completely different topic...

The Lakota proved that an Excelsior could be outfitted to be a threat. That said, I highly doubt neither the Lakota or Defiant crews used their respective ships to full effect. I would however have taken one of these ships over a Miranda or even many of the later ships shown during the Dominion conflict and think its a shame we didnt see them used more during the various shows or TUC.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Exactly, at the end of the day we have to remember these are TV shows and movies so the capability of the ships are dependent on the writers and overall plot and as these different productions are written by different people they can vary greatly.

A case point being the Enterprise D, if you rewatch TNG and Generations they gave the impression the Galaxy class and the Enterprise herself was an impressive and powerful ship but you rarely saw her at her best.

Well...I actually disagree that we rarely saw her at her best--I think more often than not we did. Even though she was only around for a short time, the Enterprise-D was involved in an impressive number of first contacts and incidents that were vital to the security of the Federation. She probably did more in just seven years than many ships do in their entire operational lifetimes. While her end was effectively the result of a well-placed sucker punch by a Klingon ship a fraction her size, no ship is invinicible, IMO. Goliaths have been taken down by Davids before (it's generally how Borg cubes are taken down).

Compare the battles in these shows where she fires a handful of shots to the damage the Galaxy class ships do in the Dominion War.

An in-universe idea could be that those Galaxy-class ships were newer and lessons learned from their earlier sister ships (namely Yamato, Odyssey, and Enterprise) were incorporated into them. At the time of the Enterprise's demise, the Galaxy-class might have still been considered a fairly young design only just entering its second block of production. By the time of the actual Dominion War, I think there are bound to have been improvements in the design.

While its possible its still more down to the way the script was written and the effects budget.

Which pretty much comes down to "stuff happens." Or in other words, don't put too much stock into the presumed abilities of a particular ship because circumstances might render them moot.

For instance against the Borg the Enterprise wouldnt (or at least shouldnt) have a chance in a one on one engagement.

What ship did have a chance in a one-on-one engagement with the Borg? Not even the Defiant--which was specifically designed to fight them--was really a match, although I'd argue that perhaps the ideal situation for her design was for multiple Defiant-class ships to attack a Borg ship at once.

But the inability of the Enterprise-D to take out a Borg ship in a one-on-one fight isn't any indication of the ship being shown "not at her best." It just means the ship was up against a more powerful vessel. The same could be said for the Defiant.

The hero ships prevail against the Borg by discovering and exploiting some weak point rather than by superior weaponry alone.

Compare this to her last battle where both Picard and the Klingons know a Bird of Prey is no match for a Galaxy Class starship, yet even with the advantage of firing through the Enterprises shields I have always found it strange that she didnt do more damage especially when you see how easily Birds of Prey were destroyed during DS9...

I think you lost me here.

 

[Shazam!]

Sigh, I'd really love another TV series set after Voyager to see what kind of ship designs they'd come up with next...

They would have been 'sleek' and 'aerodynamic' (because that matters in space).

 

[starburst]

I think I did not explain myself properly...

When discussing the Borg it was meant to highlight where the ship was written to show itself as the powerful ship it was meant to be, and the ship and its crew together managed to over come their enemy time and time again. This contrasts that they inflicted little to no damage seemingly to an old 'no threat' Bird of Prey.

My entire point is summed up with what you said below when it comes to the circumstances our heroes and their ships find themselves in due the writers.

Which pretty much comes down to "stuff happens." Or in other words, don't put too much stock into the presumed abilities of a particular ship because circumstances might render them moot.

Shared from Captain Sulu himself (and one of his many fans)

 

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
Yeah, you'll never know who or what you'll encounter out there. You might stumble across a Klingon ship that's harder to put down than others.