Maximum speed of the NuEnterprise

[Pauln6]

It remains a possibility, and Starfleet associating the "lightning storm in space" with the events on Vulcan suggests that at least Chekov thought it had something to do with it.

Beyond speculation, the only facts we have are these:
1) Earth received a distress signal reporting "seismic activity."
2) Starfleet detected the black hole (evidently without recognizing it) and thought it had something to do with it.
3) The Narada's drill interferes with communications.

1) and 3) are enough to rule out the drill. 2) Suggests an alternate cause. Even excluding that alternate cause (there is no cause to do so, as I pointed out) the facts still eliminate the drill as a potential cause.

I agree. Eminently logical.

Similarly:

1) Romulan ships use cloaking devices;
2) The Narada is not shown (on screen or in dialogue) to use a cloaking device;
3) The Narada overcomes Vulcan's defence satelites without the Vulcans being aware that they are under attack from an enemy vessel;
4) The Narada travels 16 light years to Earth uncloaked at low warp (less than 5 since Enterprise is able to overtake her at a lower warp) in a few hours while torturing defence codes from Pike;
5) Narada overcomes Earth's defences;
6) A wizard did it.

Sorry, I lost my logic thread half way through. The plot is really inconsistent isn't it?

Logically:

1a) The Narada must have captured a Vulcan and obtained Vulcan defence codes (this could even have been Spock assuming that his phenomenal memory knows what Vulcan defence codes were during this era).

1b) The Narada must have a cloaking device that was damaged during the skirmish with the Vulcan or Federation ships.

2a) Nero was unable to torture access co-ordinates to the warp corridor to Earth until part way through his journey.

2b) Warp corridors allow variable speeds at variable warp factors (i.e. they can't even remain consistent about their inconsistencies).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Similarly:

1) Romulan ships use cloaking devices;
2) The Narada is not shown (on screen or in dialogue) to use a cloaking device;
3) The Narada overcomes Vulcan's defence satelites without the Vulcans being aware that they are under attack from an enemy vessel...

Yeah, this is where you lost your thread. Number 3 has four different assumptions behind it that don't follow from facts. Namely:
- Vulcan has defense satellites
- The Narada overcame them
- The Vulcans were not aware of it
- The Vulcans would have identified the Narada as an enemy vessel.

If Vulcan doesn't have those defenses, the others are moot. If the Narada didn't bother to overcome them and just fired up the drill (thereby jamming their communications and blocking any alert signals their defense grid might send) the others are still moot. I'm sure traffic controllers on Vulcan would have identified the huge unknown alien ship in orbit, but if the drill didn't cause those disturbances, then they wouldn't have known it was HOSTILE until the drill was already active, at which point it's too late to call for help.

1a) The Narada must have captured a Vulcan and obtained Vulcan defence codes

What defense codes? We don't know for a fact that Vulcan has anything of the kind.

2b) Warp corridors allow variable speeds at variable warp factors (i.e. they can't even remain consistent about their inconsistencies).

Pretty much. Sorta like the Enterprise traveling nearly a thousand light years in "Obsession" and again in "That Which Survives," both trips lasting something less than a day.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Vulcans are pacificts, not idiots.

Check that, in JJ's universe, they're pacifists and idiots.

 

[JarodRussell]

Vulcans are pacificts, not idiots.

Check that, in JJ's universe, they're pacifists and idiots.

And racists. The culture that believes in the IDIC principle is racist. So fucking great.

 

[Pauln6]

Number 3 has four different assumptions behind it that don't follow from facts. Namely:
- Vulcan has defense satellites
- The Narada overcame them
- The Vulcans were not aware of it
- The Vulcans would have identified the Narada as an enemy vessel.

If Vulcan doesn't have those defenses, the others are moot. If the Narada didn't bother to overcome them and just fired up the drill (thereby jamming their communications and blocking any alert signals their defense grid might send) the others are still moot. I'm sure traffic controllers on Vulcan would have identified the huge unknown alien ship in orbit, but if the drill didn't cause those disturbances, then they wouldn't have known it was HOSTILE until the drill was already active, at which point it's too late to call for help.

1a) The Narada must have captured a Vulcan and obtained Vulcan defence codes

What defense codes? We don't know for a fact that Vulcan has anything of the kind.

Ah sorry - I thought we were assuming that this universe was the Prime universe prior to the Narada's arrival. The Vulcans had defence outposts in Enterprise. Are we assuming that the destruction of the Kelvin led the Vulcans to disable their defences?

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Yeah, this is where you lost your thread. Number 3 has four different assumptions behind it that don't follow from facts. Namely:
- Vulcan has defense satellites
- The Narada overcame them
- The Vulcans were not aware of it
- The Vulcans would have identified the Narada as an enemy vessel.

If Vulcan doesn't have those defenses, the others are moot. If the Narada didn't bother to overcome them and just fired up the drill (thereby jamming their communications and blocking any alert signals their defense grid might send) the others are still moot. I'm sure traffic controllers on Vulcan would have identified the huge unknown alien ship in orbit, but if the drill didn't cause those disturbances, then they wouldn't have known it was HOSTILE until the drill was already active, at which point it's too late to call for help.


What defense codes? We don't know for a fact that Vulcan has anything of the kind.

So the Vulcans leave their entire planet completely defenseless in the JJ-Verse? Apparently JJ-Vulcans are morons.

Vulcans are pacificts, not idiots.

Check that, in JJ's universe, they're pacifists and idiots.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[Set Harth]

You err in failing to understand that "A is not a cause of B" is not a logical negative.

This merely demonstrates once more that speculation is somehow available to you but apparently no one else. In order to back up your assumption that "A is not a cause of B", you postulate an associated "logical negative" - which, as your own stance on "logical negatives" helpfully points out, cannot be proven.

 

[Pauln6]

I suppose it is possible that the drill was started, causing seismic anomalies and then stopped for repositioning. As ever, the most likely explanation is that the writers fudged that the drill would prevent communications by allowing a message out before it really got going - which begs the question how the drill alone at the start of its operation could cause sufficient quakes to warrant a planet-wide call for assistance. Neither the drill or the lightning storm make plausible explanations for me. It was just a sloppy way of getting the ships to the planet without revealing that it was an attack by the Narada.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

There must have been "gaps" of some sort in the drill's effect on communications because while the drill was in operation, Nero had no trouble communicating with Pike on the Abramsprise.

 

[JarodRussell]

There must have been "gaps" of some sort in the drill's effect on communications because while the drill was in operation, Nero had no trouble communicating with Pike on the Abramsprise.

Gaps. Or holes. In the plot.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

There must have been "gaps" of some sort in the drill's effect on communications because while the drill was in operation, Nero had no trouble communicating with Pike on the Abramsprise.

Gaps. Or holes. In the plot.

Indeed.

 

[Pauln6]

There must have been "gaps" of some sort in the drill's effect on communications because while the drill was in operation, Nero had no trouble communicating with Pike on the Abramsprise.

Gaps. Or holes. In the plot.

Lol - oh yeah. It's so easy to take for granted I never even noticed that obvious gaffe.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Vulcans are pacificts, not idiots.

What's idiotic about not having your major population centers surrounded by nested rings of defensive weapons? We don't even do that during peacetime.

Vulcans are pacificts, not idiots.

Check that, in JJ's universe, they're pacifists and idiots.

And racists. The culture that believes in the IDIC principle is racist. So fucking great.

This is new? Since when? Last time I checked that brand of Vulcan prejudice was already well established in TOS/TAS and the movie series.

Number 3 has four different assumptions behind it that don't follow from facts. Namely:
- Vulcan has defense satellites
- The Narada overcame them
- The Vulcans were not aware of it
- The Vulcans would have identified the Narada as an enemy vessel.

If Vulcan doesn't have those defenses, the others are moot. If the Narada didn't bother to overcome them and just fired up the drill (thereby jamming their communications and blocking any alert signals their defense grid might send) the others are still moot. I'm sure traffic controllers on Vulcan would have identified the huge unknown alien ship in orbit, but if the drill didn't cause those disturbances, then they wouldn't have known it was HOSTILE until the drill was already active, at which point it's too late to call for help.

1a) The Narada must have captured a Vulcan and obtained Vulcan defence codes

What defense codes? We don't know for a fact that Vulcan has anything of the kind.

Ah sorry - I thought we were assuming that this universe was the Prime universe prior to the Narada's arrival. The Vulcans had defence outposts in Enterprise.

Indeed. At the time, they also had a fascist dictatorship overseen by a Romulan viceroy and a militaristic/imperialistic foreign policy instigated by the same. I do not think any of those traits survived into the 23rd century either.

Are we assuming that the destruction of the Kelvin led the Vulcans to disable their defences?

You do not need defenses at a time when you have no enemies. I'll again point out to you the suspicious lack of antiaircraft missiles around Hanoi right now.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yeah, this is where you lost your thread. Number 3 has four different assumptions behind it that don't follow from facts. Namely:
- Vulcan has defense satellites
- The Narada overcame them
- The Vulcans were not aware of it
- The Vulcans would have identified the Narada as an enemy vessel.

If Vulcan doesn't have those defenses, the others are moot. If the Narada didn't bother to overcome them and just fired up the drill (thereby jamming their communications and blocking any alert signals their defense grid might send) the others are still moot. I'm sure traffic controllers on Vulcan would have identified the huge unknown alien ship in orbit, but if the drill didn't cause those disturbances, then they wouldn't have known it was HOSTILE until the drill was already active, at which point it's too late to call for help.


What defense codes? We don't know for a fact that Vulcan has anything of the kind.

So the Vulcans leave their entire planet completely defenseless in the JJ-Verse?

Of course not. The nearest starship is only three minutes away.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You err in failing to understand that "A is not a cause of B" is not a logical negative.

This merely demonstrates once more that speculation is somehow available to you but apparently no one else. In order to back up your assumption that "A is not a cause of B", you postulate an associated "logical negative"

No you don't. It's basic first-order logic, Harth. You cannot prove "Not A," by itself, you can only prove "B is Not A." That doesn't tell you what B is, but it's easy enough to determine what it isn't.

For example, we know that the seismic disturbances were not caused by the Enterprise. How do we know this? Because the fact that Enterprise was orbiting Earth when the signal was sent contradicts the preposition that Enterprise caused the disturbance.

Similarly: we know the fact that the drill interferes with communications contradicts the preposition that the drill caused the disturbance. THAT is not speculation, it is simple deduction from fact.

There must have been "gaps" of some sort in the drill's effect on communications because while the drill was in operation, Nero had no trouble communicating with Pike on the Abramsprise.

Since it only seems to block subspace signals, this doesn't seem to be a problem (likewise, Spock was unable to use the ship's "gravitational sensors" to scan the interior of Vulcan until after the drill had been shut down). Likewise, Enterprise was also in communication with Pike's shuttle AND with Kirk and Sulu on the drill platform the entire time, so the drill doesn't seem to have any huge effect on ordinary radio signals.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Since it only seems to block subspace signals, this doesn't seem to be a problem (likewise, Spock was unable to use the ship's "gravitational sensors" to scan the interior of Vulcan until after the drill had been shut down). Likewise, Enterprise was also in communication with Pike's shuttle AND with Kirk and Sulu on the drill platform the entire time, so the drill doesn't seem to have any huge effect on ordinary radio signals.

Since when have "ordinary radio signals" been used in Star Trek? Starfleet communicates with subspace radio, not ordinary radio. That's always been the case. "Radio" has always been considered primitive in the Star Trek universe. So that argument doesn't fly. It was a mistake on the part of the writers. Plain and simple.

 

[Pauln6]

Ah sorry - I thought we were assuming that this universe was the Prime universe prior to the Narada's arrival. The Vulcans had defence outposts in Enterprise.

Indeed. At the time, they also had a fascist dictatorship overseen by a Romulan viceroy and a militaristic/imperialistic foreign policy instigated by the same. I do not think any of those traits survived into the 23rd century either.

Are we assuming that the destruction of the Kelvin led the Vulcans to disable their defences?

You do not need defenses at a time when you have no enemies. I'll again point out to you the suspicious lack of antiaircraft missiles around Hanoi right now.

No enemies? I thought Vulcan was close to the Romulan Neutral Zone? Even if it wasn't, the enemies of the Federation would view the Vulcans as their enemies too and we know from experience that the Federation's fleet is often spread very thinly. To leave one's planet at the mercy of possible invasion with no defences is not logical.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Yeah, because in JJland, the Klingons and Romulans are all warm and fuzzy and don't use so much as harsh language when they get grumpy.

NO ENEMIES!?! Seriously, are you even reading your own posts?

Besides, even in the event of something humdrum, like a incoming asteroid, it might be useful to have some sort of weapons platform in orbit to take of something like that...

 

[Set Harth]

I thought Vulcan was close to the Romulan Neutral Zone?

So close, in fact, that gravitational effects due to Neutral Zone anomalies propagate across interstellar space to affect Vulcan. (Or not.)

No you don't.

You do, however much you may claim otherwise. Using your fallacious labeling system, isn't it interesting how there are supposedly no "negatives" in your proposition - apparently just a collection of "positives", so that "you can't prove a negative" becomes a tactic that applies only to the opposition but not to yourself? How did you conveniently become "negative"-free, other than by your own arbitrary assumption? Your case is based on multiple examples of speculation, handwaved into assumed authenticity by "you can't prove a negative". What prevents the speculation in my argument from receiving the same consideration? Besides, your own attempt to prove a negative, already doomed to failure in its very inception, is even more doomed now that yet another explanation has been offered:

I suppose it is possible that the drill was started, causing seismic anomalies and then stopped for repositioning.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Since when have "ordinary radio signals" been used in Star Trek?

Chronologically? Since NX-01.

Canonically? Since "A Piece of the Action."

Starfleet communicates with subspace radio

Starships do, yes, especially over interstellar distances. This is not known to be the case for short range signals like communicators or ship-to-planet transmissions. If nothing else, the functionality to send and receive signals on ordinary radio frequencies is a demonstrated capability of every starship of every race we have encountered; even Klingon ships are capable of homing in on a particular radio frequency from hundreds of miles away.

No enemies? I thought Vulcan was close to the Romulan Neutral Zone?

Which the Romulans have apparently not violated in over a century, Narada's appearance notwithstanding. The Earth outposts along the neutral zone are almost certainly well armed and fortified, but a hundred years of peace is good enough reason to put most of your orbital defenses in storage.

Come to think of it, assuming the two timelines weren't otherwise different, Vulcan would have experienced ANOTHER hundred years of peace without ever needing those satellites; the next time they are threatened by Romulan aggression is in "Unification," a threat which is handily mitigated (and preemptively at that) by Starfleet anyway.

Basically, the Vulcans have no reason to believe they need any such defenses, and except for the Narada, they'd be correct.

Besides, even in the event of something humdrum, like a incoming asteroid, it might be useful to have some sort of weapons platform in orbit to take of something like that...

Deflection of asteroids and comets is usually handled by starships (a plot line we have seen no less than six times in Trek history). Planetary deflectors and weapons platforms are seldom deployed for these tasks, for reasons that should be pretty obvious.