Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[DigificWriter]

Good on you for ignoring the healthy open mind part of my post. Says a lot about you.
You keep doing you dude, I got better things to do than arguing on the internet. If taking that as a win makes you better this Sunday, by all means, go for it.

No amount of open-mindedness is going to change the reality that Chris Evans coming back signals desperation in ways that aren't mitigated by other factors and is also problematic because it gives the impression that he's only coming back as a 'course correction' based on a very tiny minority reacting poorly to Anthony Mackie - a Black man - being given the mantle of Captain America.

 

[Santa Kang]

You never know, he could be playing another Johnny Storm variant.

Who's into Captain America cosplay.

 

[Santa Kang]

Not according to the trailer we have all seen,

"We" haven't. Is it online some where?

 

[Captaindemotion]

"We" haven't. Is it online some where?

I don’t know if it’s the real thing or an AI replica but I saw a version on YouTube that matched the description I read.

 

[theenglish]

Evans coming back has no discernible narrative justification that can mitigate its negative impact, perceptionally, on the IP.

RDJ coming back as Doom had a narrative justification immediately baked in even though it took time for me to get over my own frustration and recognize that.

The only way I can think of is for Evans to be a villain, possibly with a redemption at the end leading him to take his shield to hand over to Wilson in Endgame.

 

[JoeZhang]

Come on - they are not doing a trailer where Steve is a happy dad to make him a bad guy.

More likely they ask him early to come into the battle but he is retired. Then the less popular heroes are wiped out and he is drawn back in to set up the next film.

 

[theenglish]

Come on - they are not doing a trailer where Steve is a happy dad to make him a bad guy.

More likely they ask him early to come into the battle but he is retired. Then the less popular heroes are wiped out and he is drawn back in to set up the next film.

Well, I haven't seen this trailer. My point being that if Evans comes back as Captain America, I can see no way that it won't undermine Wilson as Captain America. In the comics Steve came back as a member of Hydra due to a reality shift--that was the story.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

That's why I find it so hysterical that so many people are making such a big deal about Evans' return.

Evans in association with Marvel Studios only means one thing up to this point: he portrayed Captain America, which by the character's nature--like it or not--has always attracted those who believe in White males as the "pillar image" of Western (read: American) heroism as embodied in the character (despite various comic book writers haveing Rogers fight against that perception). You can find it as "hilarious" as you care to, but that speaks to not being the one or part of a specific group who are the historical targets of the kind of negativity Mackie as Captain America received over the course of generations (which was predicted in his own D+ series).

This is not some random character at play here. This is the most White / "pillar image" comic book character ever created, and again, despite various comic creators attempting to have Rogers reject or re-mold that image (since late 1960s Cap comics), its hardly stopped it from becoming part of the larger social narrative of White identity (i.e., White "replacement theory"), which was the direct cause of the hostile reactions to Wilson getting that shield in Endgame. This larger social narrative is the anti-DEI argument, which has become mainstream in nearly every Western nation, with sweeping legislation and corporate fear happening across America. There's not a thing funny about that when you're the one who knows where this kind of decision-making has influenced life in the past, can lead to now, or what reactions it may generate in far wider circles than just some Marvel movie(s).

And yet people are going out of their way to be angry. There are far worse things to be angry about right now. A Marvel film isn't worth that kind of energy.

"Going out their way to be angry" is astoundingly tone deaf and insulting. Then again, the subject is not a life you are experiencing, so its quite easy to post so dismissive a judgement.

No, because, contextually, bringing back Chris as Steve is abjectly different from bringing RDJ back as Doom, especially since bringing Steve back is inherently problematic on account of how his departure was used to pass the torch of being the MCU's Captain to Anthony Mackie and on account of how negatively certain people, even as a distinct minority, reacted to Mackie being handed said mantle and responsibility in the first place.

As you see, the clarity of your analysis is ignored. Just munch popcorn and forget that media imagery, its motives, and how specific actions regarding a character is directly tied to a mounted, nationwide attack on any representation of the "wrong" person playing / taking on the role of that "pillar image".

No amount of open-mindedness is going to change the reality that Chris Evans coming back signals desperation in ways that aren't mitigated by other factors and is also problematic because it gives the impression that he's only coming back as a 'course correction' based on a very tiny minority reacting poorly to Anthony Mackie - a Black man - being given the mantle of Captain America.

Well put. That is exactly the impression it sends right now.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

No, because, contextually, bringing back Chris as Steve is abjectly different from bringing RDJ back as Doom, especially since bringing Steve back is inherently problematic on account of how his departure was used to pass the torch of being the MCU's Captain to Anthony Mackie and on account of how negatively certain people, even as a distinct minority, reacted to Mackie being handed said mantle and responsibility in the first place.

We don't know how Evans is going to be used in the story. We also don't know how Mackie will be used in the story. But I think it's safe to say Evans won't come back to be Captain America and as result Mackie goes back to being Falcon.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

"We" haven't. Is it online some where?

Certain images from it was on Youtube. Hard to find though because they moved fast to take that stuff down. I think the Thor one was also leaked but haven't seen that one. From what I gather is we are going to get 4 trailers. One is about Evans as Captain America, One is about Thor, One is about Downey Jr as Doom. Then the fourth will be the big first trailer for the whole movie.

 

[DigificWriter]

We don't know how Evans is going to be used in the story. We also don't know how Mackie will be used in the story. But I think it's safe to say Evans won't come back to be Captain America and as result Mackie goes back to being Falcon.

No amount of context, narratively, is going to mitigate how damaging and problematic Evans coming back is or how badly it reeks of desperation.

Full stop.

Evans could show up for exactly two seconds as Old Steve, and it would still send the message that they brought him back solely 'to put butts in seats' and because a tiny minority rejected and resented Mackie taking on the mantle of Captain America.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

No amount of context, narratively, is going to mitigate how damaging and problematic Evans coming back is or how badly it reeks of desperation.

Full stop.

Evans could show up for exactly two seconds as Old Steve, and it would still send the message that they brought him back solely 'to put butts in seats' and because a tiny minority rejected and resented Mackie taking on the mantle of Captain America.

I don't think people put that much thought into this. Most people just go to a movie because they think it's going to be good. They like the characters they like and dislike the ones they find to be boring. Lots of the conflict you talk about is basically just internet drama. Also the small percentage of people who like this just because they are bigots is not a issue. People can't tap dance around the feelings of bigots worrying about if they are going to be pissed or happy.

This doesn't even change the fact that if you don't bring back Evans and the movie fails they will just go ahead with the 'Go Woke, Go Broke" narrative instead. The movie failed because they focused on identity politics over a good story. The rage baiters and content creators know how do what they do with any scenario that presents itself. That is because they are professionals and they know to mine the algorithms for profit. As long as social media is the way it is their is no escape from it because it's what people want. People want stuff that either makes them feel angry or confirms their biases.

It's better to try and just relax and ignore that and take the movie for what it is. Something to watch to be entertained by. Ignore all the shit narratives and internet drama that comes with basically every long standing IP at this point.

 

[DigificWriter]

I don't think people put that much thought into this. Most people just go to a movie because they think it's going to be good. They like the characters they like and dislike the ones they find to be boring. Lots of the conflict you talk about is basically just internet drama. Also the small percentage of people who like this just because they are bigots is not a issue. People can't tap dance around the feelings of bigots worrying about if they are going to be pissed or happy.

This doesn't even change the fact that if you don't bring back Evans and the movie fails they will just go ahead with the 'Go Woke, Go Broke" narrative instead. The movie failed because they focused on identity politics over a good story. The rage baiters and content creators know how do what they do with any scenario that presents itself. That is because they are professionals and they know to mine the algorithms for profit. As long as social media is the way it is their is no escape from it because it's what people want. People want stuff that either makes them feel angry or confirms their biases.

It's better to try and just relax and ignore that and take the movie for what it is. Something to watch to be entertained by. Ignore all the shit narratives and internet drama that comes with basically every long standing IP at this point.

Pretending that there isn't an issue here doesn't stop the issue from existing.

 

[Jason X-Mas]

Pretending that there isn't an issue here doesn't stop the issue from existing.

The issue of people complaining about wokeness on the internet is not going away if you just don't put Steve Rogers in the next Marvel movie. The issues involving bigotry and alienation effecting so many people, especially young people is coming from a deeper more personal place than that. The fact that people care more about this than real issues is kind of why society has gotten to the place it has gotten to.

 

[Set Harth]

My point being that if Evans comes back as Captain America, I can see no way that it won't undermine Wilson as Captain America.

Evans could show up for exactly two seconds as Old Steve, and it would still send the message that they brought him back solely 'to put butts in seats' and because a tiny minority rejected and resented Mackie taking on the mantle of Captain America.

Shouldn't we at least wait until the movie comes out?

 

[Mage]

Shouldn't we at least wait until the movie comes out?

No, the Internet Gods have already decided they are right.

What I think is brilliant here, and literally no one seems to notice....
It's always been 'Iron Man will return, Star Lord will return, Captain America will return' etc etc....

The card says Steve Rogers will return. Not Captain America. The Russo's knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they handed the shield to Sam. He IS Captain America. It's Steve that is returning, that's all. But like I said, some people on the internet, including some know it alls here, have decided that he can only return as Cap.

 

[theenglish]

No, the Internet Gods have already decided they are right.

What I think is brilliant here, and literally no one seems to notice....
It's always been 'Iron Man will return, Star Lord will return, Captain America will return' etc etc....

The card says Steve Rogers will return. Not Captain America. The Russo's knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they handed the shield to Sam. He IS Captain America. It's Steve that is returning, that's all. But like I said, some people on the internet, including some know it alls here, have decided that he can only return as Cap.

That's not fair. I am not (and I don't think others are) commenting on the story or the movie itself, but rather the motivations for having the actor return in the first place--and using it as the opening sales pitch for the the general audience. I don't see anyone commenting on whether the actual appearance of the character will be positive in the actual movie-- What is being discussed is that bringing Evans back plays into two scenarios: 1. Hiring the actor back reeks of desperation to recapture the "glory days" of the MCU circa 2016-2018. 2. Regardless of the studio's intentions, just hiring Evans brings about the feeling that a black man is being relegated to second string for the prominence of a white man when Mackie has only had a really great Disney Plus series and a mediocre movie as Cap.

 

[Mage]

That's not fair. I am not (and I don't think others are) commenting on the story or the movie itself, but rather the motivations for having the actor return in the first place--and using it as the opening sales pitch for the the general audience. I don't see anyone commenting on whether the actual appearance of the character will be positive in the actual movie-- What is being discussed is that bringing Evans back plays into two scenarios: 1. Hiring the actor back reeks of desperation to recapture the "glory days" of the MCU circa 2016-2018. 2. Regardless of the studio's intentions, just hiring Evans brings about the feeling that a black man is being relegated to second string for the prominence of a white man when Mackie has only had a really great Disney Plus series and a mediocre movie as Cap.

Here's the thing with feelings.... Yes, it can bring about that feeling. If people feed that negativity than yes, that it the message that the casting of Evans will bring about. But if we see Mackie shine on screen as Cap will Evans is just being Steve in a lesser role, it doesn't need to have that feeling.
And that's the issue here. Some people here are already putting extra energy towards the hatred against Mackie/Sam by bringing this up themselves. We have no idea how this movie will play out yet, but you are already focusing on the negative aspects.
Feed the positive. Keep saying that it's awesome to see a beloved character back but also how amazing it is to have a African American Captain America that can be an great role model. Fight the hatred, don't give it ammo by already focusing on what might be and there by giving those haters the change to say 'see, other people are also saying we might be right'.
THAT is what will happen if you keep giving them that spotlight, that podium. Drown them out by focusing on what we have right now; a great show and yes, a mediocare movie. But that we do HAVE a black Captain America and that we are celebrating that. And if, after the movie is released, we do indeed see Wilson handing the shield back to Steve and say he is Cap, I will be the first to say that that is just wrong. But I will see AFTER the movie.

And in the meantime, I will keep posting that right now, Sam Wilson is Captain America and no one else, and I will keep pushing back against hatred and bigotry.

 

[DigificWriter]

What is being discussed is that bringing Evans back plays into two scenarios: 1. Hiring the actor back reeks of desperation to recapture the "glory days" of the MCU circa 2016-2018. 2. Regardless of the studio's intentions, just hiring Evans brings about the feeling that a black man is being relegated to second string for the prominence of a white man when Mackie has only had a really great Disney Plus series and a mediocre movie as Cap.

Bingo.

Here's the thing with feelings.... Yes, it can bring about that feeling. If people feed that negativity than yes, that it the message that the casting of Evans will bring about. But if we see Mackie shine on screen as Cap will Evans is just being Steve in a lesser role, it doesn't need to have that feeling.
And that's the issue here. Some people here are already putting extra energy towards the hatred against Mackie/Sam by bringing this up themselves. We have no idea how this movie will play out yet, but you are already focusing on the negative aspects.
Feed the positive. Keep saying that it's awesome to see a beloved character back but also how amazing it is to have a African American Captain America that can be an great role model. Fight the hatred, don't give it ammo by already focusing on what might be and there by giving those haters the change to say 'see, other people are also saying we might be right'.
THAT is what will happen if you keep giving them that spotlight, that podium. Drown them out by focusing on what we have right now; a great show and yes, a mediocare movie. But that we do HAVE a black Captain America and that we are celebrating that. And if, after the movie is released, we do indeed see Wilson handing the shield back to Steve and say he is Cap, I will be the first to say that that is just wrong. But I will see AFTER the movie.

And in the meantime, I will keep posting that right now, Sam Wilson is Captain America and no one else, and I will keep pushing back against hatred and bigotry.

No amount of positivity can mitigate bad Optics.

 

[Mage]

No amount of positivity can mitigate bad Optics.

And that is why you will never be part of a solution. You decide to put your energy and effort into the negative.