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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


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Daredevil wasn't exactly watered down but they did get ride of his support system of characters and brought in new ones that were boring. The Punisher did well but it will be seen if they allow him to kill any bad guys other than corrupt cops. The fact that they were bad cops is I think the excuse they went with in justifying his violence.

Season 1 was a weird stitchup, because they fired the original showrunners, then hired a guy who wrote on The Punisher to fix the series.

From what I can gather, Episodes 1, 8, and 9 were all new material. Foggy being included (and getting murked), Karen, and Frank Castle were all inclusions only after the show was retooled. Originally the show was not really going to have any connection to the Netflix show, other than Cox and D'Onofrio reprising their roles. They also recast Vanessa Fisk originally, meaning all of those scenes were reshot.

I think the only episode which is largely uncut from the old showrunners was 5 (the bank robbery where Kamala Khan's dad was there), which was effectively a bottle episode (hence why it was dropped in a twofer with the more arc-based Episode 6).

So yeah, the original intent was to have a clean slate show - a more lighthearted legal procedural which happened to have a Daredevil and Kingpin close to, but not identical to, the versions from the Netflix show. But after retooling, they directly tied it in. I expect the tie-ins will be even more explicit in Season 2.
 
Well corrupt cops are the bad guys in DD BA, who else should he be killing?

I look forward to the next goal post shift.

Nothing wrong with killing corrupt cops but The Punisher has very little issue with killing any criminals. Which I know is seen as to much for some these days because you have people who feels like it glorifies violence. It's one of the reasons you see less anti-heroes these days. I mean people even get worked up over The Punisher skull symbol because a bunch of macho cops trying to look like bad asses put it on their cop cars and all that type of stuff.

IMO The Punisher character is not a hero but a anti-hero. He appeals to a darker aspect of our nature and that is our desire for revenge on people who do terrible and immoral things. With most people our empathy keeps these darker feelings in check and we try and embrace a higher moral code, that we call justice. The Punisher though just ignores that and flat out kills the bad guys. That is what makes the character interesting. We understand his desire for revenge but also don't approve of it thus we are suppose to have uncomfortable and complicated feelings towards his actions.

What I think DIsney does though is they basically don't trust the audience anymore to understand that lots of people want movies and tv shows to make them feel uncomfortable feelings and want to have their worldview challenged. So they end up coming up with a list of safe targets they feel people will be okay with being killed or being seen as terrible people. Thanks to police brutality being a serious issue raised in modern society that then makes immoral and corrupt cops as easy targets for Frank Castle to kill because nobody will complain about it, except for the usually suspects on social media.

You sort of see the same issues pop up in Batman and really any cop show these days. I much prefer the more challenging approach stories use to take to these stories and these issues in the early to mid 200's during the height of the golden age of tv.
 
Maybe it's because think I try to look on the positive side....
But maybe Chris Evans just really misses being Cap?
 
IMO The Punisher character is not a hero but a anti-hero. He appeals to a darker aspect of our nature and that is our desire for revenge on people who do terrible and immoral things. With most people our empathy keeps these darker feelings in check and we try and embrace a higher moral code, that we call justice. The Punisher though just ignores that and flat out kills the bad guys. That is what makes the character interesting. We understand his desire for revenge but also don't approve of it thus we are suppose to have uncomfortable and complicated feelings towards his actions.

What I think Disney does though is they basically don't trust the audience anymore to understand that lots of people want movies and tv shows to make them feel uncomfortable feelings and want to have their worldview challenged. So they end up coming up with a list of safe targets they feel people will be okay with being killed or being seen as terrible people. Thanks to police brutality being a serious issue raised in modern society that then makes immoral and corrupt cops as easy targets for Frank Castle to kill because nobody will complain about it, except for the usually suspects on social media.

One of the aspects of The Punisher a lot of casual fans don't get is Frank Castle hates himself and anyone who idolizes him. He believes he's damned (figuratively, if not literally) so he needs to do the bad shit to save others from having to. He absolutely does not want anyone to follow him.

The character would absolutely hate real-life fanboys, and I believe this has been dealt with in comic arcs in the past. So his interactions with the crooked cops are 100% accurate.
 
One of the aspects of The Punisher a lot of casual fans don't get is Frank Castle hates himself and anyone who idolizes him. He believes he's damned (figuratively, if not literally) so he needs to do the bad shit to save others from having to. He absolutely does not want anyone to follow him.

The character would absolutely hate real-life fanboys, and I believe this has been dealt with in comic arcs in the past. So his interactions with the crooked cops are 100% accurate.
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One of the aspects of The Punisher a lot of casual fans don't get is Frank Castle hates himself and anyone who idolizes him. He believes he's damned (figuratively, if not literally) so he needs to do the bad shit to save others from having to. He absolutely does not want anyone to follow him.

The character would absolutely hate real-life fanboys, and I believe this has been dealt with in comic arcs in the past. So his interactions with the crooked cops are 100% accurate.

I agree with that. But it makes me wonder what else are they going to do with the character. You can't just have him killing cops every time either. Basically I don't want them to hold back on the character just because they are afraid of what people on the internet will say. It's basically a issue I have with lots of tv shows and movies. The risk adverse approach that lots of studios take is not good for storytelling.
 
Nothing wrong with killing corrupt cops but The Punisher has very little issue with killing any criminals. Which I know is seen as to much for some these days because you have people who feels like it glorifies violence. It's one of the reasons you see less anti-heroes these days. I mean people even get worked up over The Punisher skull symbol because a bunch of macho cops trying to look like bad asses put it on their cop cars and all that type of stuff.

IMO The Punisher character is not a hero but a anti-hero. He appeals to a darker aspect of our nature and that is our desire for revenge on people who do terrible and immoral things. With most people our empathy keeps these darker feelings in check and we try and embrace a higher moral code, that we call justice. The Punisher though just ignores that and flat out kills the bad guys. That is what makes the character interesting. We understand his desire for revenge but also don't approve of it thus we are suppose to have uncomfortable and complicated feelings towards his actions.

What I think DIsney does though is they basically don't trust the audience anymore to understand that lots of people want movies and tv shows to make them feel uncomfortable feelings and want to have their worldview challenged. So they end up coming up with a list of safe targets they feel people will be okay with being killed or being seen as terrible people. Thanks to police brutality being a serious issue raised in modern society that then makes immoral and corrupt cops as easy targets for Frank Castle to kill because nobody will complain about it, except for the usually suspects on social media.

You sort of see the same issues pop up in Batman and really any cop show these days. I much prefer the more challenging approach stories use to take to these stories and these issues in the early to mid 200's during the height of the golden age of tv.
Yeah, I know who the Punisher is. I was there when he popped up on the cover of Amazing Spider-Man with Spidey in his scope, ready to pull the trigger on our hero. It's more than "your opinion" that old Frank is an Anti-Hero. That he's willing to kill (corrupt cops, criminals and others) is why he's an Anti-Hero.

Criminals are criminals, it doesn't matter if they wear a badge, a ski mask or a business suit. Fisk is in the show and is in the latter category. Frank would be happy to take him out and I think Disney would be find with it.

Making cops bad guys is definitely going to make some people in the audience uncomfortable. After all cops are on "our side", right?
 
Making cops bad guys is definitely going to make some people in the audience uncomfortable. After all cops are on "our side", right?

These days, a lot of people in the audience are more uncomfortable with the usual portrayal of cops as unambiguous good guys, because reality paints such a different picture.

But there is a long history of depicting police corruption in fiction, particularly in superhero stories. It's been the default in Batman fiction ever since the 1987 Frank Miller reboot, with Gordon as the one honest cop in a thoroughly corrupt police force, and Batman's vigilante methods needed because the authorities couldn't be relied on. Although Miller pretty much cribbed that premise from The Green Hornet, which had been doing it since the 1940s.
 
Yeah, I know who the Punisher is. I was there when he popped up on the cover of Amazing Spider-Man with Spidey in his scope, ready to pull the trigger on our hero. It's more than "your opinion" that old Frank is an Anti-Hero. That he's willing to kill (corrupt cops, criminals and others) is why he's an Anti-Hero.

Criminals are criminals, it doesn't matter if they wear a badge, a ski mask or a business suit. Fisk is in the show and is in the latter category. Frank would be happy to take him out and I think Disney would be find with it.

Making cops bad guys is definitely going to make some people in the audience uncomfortable. After all cops are on "our side", right?

Does making cops the bad guys really make people feel uncomfortable these days? After the murder of George Floyd we saw the birth of the copaganda concept. I think these days their is basically 3 easy targets for bad guys. White Supremacist, Corrupt Cops and Russians. While The Punisher isn't a cop I think people don't like him because they think other people see him as a hero. They point to those real life cops who embraced his logo as a example of why the character is bad. That the character makes it seem like it's justified to go around killing bad people.

Disney knows this so they are basically trying to figure out how to make the character work by appealing to two different groups. People who want the more edgy complicated version of the character and people who hate the character. Corrupt Cops is basically their safe compromise. Frank still gets to be violent and be a killer but since it's corrupt cops it is acceptable.
 
I agree with that. But it makes me wonder what else are they going to do with the character. You can't just have him killing cops every time either. Basically I don't want them to hold back on the character just because they are afraid of what people on the internet will say. It's basically a issue I have with lots of tv shows and movies. The risk adverse approach that lots of studios take is not good for storytelling.

I honestly think that the MCU as a whole is a lot more violent than Marvel comics. Probably in part because it has to hew to action-movie cliches where random mooks are mowed down without a thought.

Aside from Peter Parker, are there any notable MCU superheroes who don't kill random bad guys?

Edit: Yeah, I know Daredevil is an exception, but he's only recently in the MCU.
 
Does making cops the bad guys really make people feel uncomfortable these days? After the murder of George Floyd we saw the birth of the copaganda concept. I think these days their is basically 3 easy targets for bad guys. White Supremacist, Corrupt Cops and Russians. While The Punisher isn't a cop I think people don't like him because they think other people see him as a hero. They point to those real life cops who embraced his logo as a example of why the character is bad. That the character makes it seem like it's justified to go around killing bad people.

Disney knows this so they are basically trying to figure out how to make the character work by appealing to two different groups. People who want the more edgy complicated version of the character and people who hate the character. Corrupt Cops is basically their safe compromise. Frank still gets to be violent and be a killer but since it's corrupt cops it is acceptable.
Well yes it does make people uncomfortable. just not the people who look at Floyd's death as murder. Law and Order types with a Thin Blue Line flag decal might be uncomfortable with cops being the bad guys.

Also, Frank isn't the star of DD BA. He's a side character. When the Punisher special comes out, then we can see how Disney is going to handle him.

And the big bad in DD BA is Wilson Fisk, a criminal, a businessman, and politician, not a cop.
 
There is no difference between "the Netflix Universe" and "the Disney Universe" the first repeatedly proved that it is a direct continuation of the Netflix show, and it looks like Season 2 will be even more closely follow up on what happened on the Defenders series, since it's put together with that being the intent from the beginning.
I can see her saying she would prefer to keep her natural hair and them going with it but I also think that when you make movie.especially a high profile one like this they make sure anything on screen is planned out in detail. From the clothes and hair style the actors have to the wording on every street sign and what vehicles they use, even if they are in the background. To much money involved to not focus on every little detail. No doubt they have GOD's knows how much market research on this stuff to make sure they go with the most safe picks or ones they think the audience wants to see the most.
Of course, I know how movie productions work, I've spent a good chunk of my life following movie and TV productions pretty closely. But the people making these shows and movie have repeatedly proven that they are a lot less concerned with matching every detail of the comics than the fans are. We've already gotten quite a few characters who look significantly different from the comics version, so it's not totally out of the realm of possibility that Sadie Sink could be playing a character who is not a red head in the comics.

I think that stuff though plays secondarily to people just wanting to see their favorite characters on screen. I also was a fan of The Falcon and the Winter Solider and personally I think if they had condensed that story into a movie, we might be having a different story for this movie. It really explored Sam WIlson way better than his own movie did and was better written .

Thing is we also know Sam Wilson is also in the movie. Who is to say he won't have a good role in the movie just because Steve Rogers is in it. If anything Sam Wilson might be so interesting it actually creates demand for he character to continue in the MCU. Almost a mea culpa for Brave New World.

I think Wilson is basically the team leader of the Avengers in the movie. They are one of several teams in the movie. I actually think Evans will be sharing the screen the most with Downey Jr/Doom. Doom doesn't really have a team exactly so far so they will need to give him some characters to interact with.

I could almost even see Evans as someone that the other teams have to work together I order to rescue him from Doom because Doom's plan hinges on doing something to Evans that can't be done or else all the good guys will loose. A Damsel in Distress for a lack of a better term.
You obviously have no idea just how bad racism is getting in the US right now. For people who have a problem with a black Captain America, screen time and what they're role in the story is, is not going to matter, all they'll about is that the "real" Captain America is back.
It is the same character but knowing Disney they will likely soften the edges to the character and we will get a watered down version of the character.
Not necessarily, they already proved with Brand New Day Season 1, and Daredevil & Wolverine that they're willing to take things pretty far when it's appropriate for the character.
Nothing wrong with killing corrupt cops but The Punisher has very little issue with killing any criminals. Which I know is seen as to much for some these days because you have people who feels like it glorifies violence. It's one of the reasons you see less anti-heroes these days. I mean people even get worked up over The Punisher skull symbol because a bunch of macho cops trying to look like bad asses put it on their cop cars and all that type of stuff.
Wow, you really are that naive aren't you? There is a lot more going on behind the issues people have with the use the Punisher's symbol in real life than just "macho cops wanting to look like bad asses".
IMO The Punisher character is not a hero but a anti-hero. He appeals to a darker aspect of our nature and that is our desire for revenge on people who do terrible and immoral things. With most people our empathy keeps these darker feelings in check and we try and embrace a higher moral code, that we call justice. The Punisher though just ignores that and flat out kills the bad guys. That is what makes the character interesting. We understand his desire for revenge but also don't approve of it thus we are suppose to have uncomfortable and complicated feelings towards his actions.

What I think DIsney does though is they basically don't trust the audience anymore to understand that lots of people want movies and tv shows to make them feel uncomfortable feelings and want to have their worldview challenged. So they end up coming up with a list of safe targets they feel people will be okay with being killed or being seen as terrible people. Thanks to police brutality being a serious issue raised in modern society that then makes immoral and corrupt cops as easy targets for Frank Castle to kill because nobody will complain about it, except for the usually suspects on social media.

You sort of see the same issues pop up in Batman and really any cop show these days. I much prefer the more challenging approach stories use to take to these stories and these issues in the early to mid 200's during the height of the golden age of tv.
I agree with that. But it makes me wonder what else are they going to do with the character. You can't just have him killing cops every time either. Basically I don't want them to hold back on the character just because they are afraid of what people on the internet will say. It's basically a issue I have with lots of tv shows and movies. The risk adverse approach that lots of studios take is not good for storytelling.
I really don't think anybody is going to have a problem with him going after mobsters and other kinds of criminals too.
 
I honestly think that the MCU as a whole is a lot more violent than Marvel comics. Probably in part because it has to hew to action-movie cliches where random mooks are mowed down without a thought.

Aside from Peter Parker, are there any notable MCU superheroes who don't kill random bad guys?

Ant-Man and Ms. Marvel come to mind.
 
I think you're seriously overestimating the general audience's interest in such themes and will be just happy to see Chris Evans. Hell, much of the Marvel fandom will be happy to see him return while also capable of realizing that Sam still does stand on his own.

...unless there's something about the film itself that precludes to Steve's return that directly undermines Sam's character arc. Which, of course, I highly doubt.
Evans' return as any sort of good Cap undermines Sam-Cap for the reasons I explained to Jason. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier made it an canonical point & clear through Sam's talk with Bradley and even Morgenthau's outrage at Sam appearing in costume: for Bradley, he was speaking to the historic--and continuing--rejection of a Black man as any sort of "pillar image" of Western (read: American) heroism, a position / situation he was prevented from claiming for only one reason. That reason was purposely written as a major developmental part of Sam taking on the role of Cap because the backlash to Sam as Cap began with the park bench/shield scene from Endgame. From that moment, the media version of the "Great Replacement Theory" took off, as though an identity "made" for and "belonging" to a White Male character was being handed over to the undeserving minority (also explored in various comics dealing with Sam becoming Cap). It is likely the FATWS scene would not exist if the rejection of Sam becoming Cap did not have parallels in the real world.

For the Morgenthau character, her addressing Sam when seeing him in the Cap costume with "You--of all people--bought into that bullshit?!?" was not just talking about the myths designed to protect a corrupt government she fought, but hers was a pointed reference to a Black American taking on the ultimate patriotic role, knowing what its rarely--if ever--meant for people like Sam. That statement circles back to Bradley's opinion on the rejection Sam would face--the "bullshit" of a Western heroism idea that resents the very idea of a Black man being Captain America, which was predicted in TFATWS and reflected in real life, from Endgame and well into this era of Brave New World.
 
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