The fact that they're both Hollywood produced entertainment and it happens all the time in both TV and feature films.
Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
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Jason I know you like to try and think you know the history, but:
The first Fox Fantastic Four film did very well. Well enough to get a sequel green lit in the days when it wasn't too sure thing. It also came out in 2005, just 3 years before the first MCU Ironman and Hulk films.
The second Fox Fantastic Four film came out in 2007. It did okay, but no it did not meet the studio's box office expectations.
If you consider either of these films ancient, then the MCU itself is also ancient.
The third Fox Fantastic Four film was just an unmitigated disaster in all respects, especially in the box office arena. Also unlike the first two films, no members in the Third film's cast have ever appeared in any MCU feature film, TV, or Disney Plus streaming series.
Well, not as their FF character. (Michael B. Jordan)
I stand corrected.
He was bad in the 3rd Fox FF film and given how well he played his role in the MCU Black Panther film, I keep thinking Jonny Storm wax played by a different Michael B. Jordan.
(I'm a HUGE FF fan, but even I couldn't sit through and finish watching the 3rd Fox Ff film.
If William Shatner or Leonard Nimoy had appeared in TNG as a character entirely unrelated to Kirk or Spock, if Harrison Ford was in the Star Wars sequels as someone entirely different from Han Solo, the comparisons may be valid. Jeffrey Combs is not an iconic A-lister who the man or woman on the street knows and he was never the public face of Star Trek. As it is, they’re about as relevant as comparing what happens in eg Coronation Street. You may as well compare what happens in the premier league with the lads playing semi-professional football. Same game but different level, just like RDJ-Tony Stark and various recurring actors/ characters are on an entirely different level.The fact that they're both Hollywood produced entertainment and it happens all the time in both TV and feature films.
He was bad in the 3rd Fox FF film and given how well he played his role in the MCU Black Panther film, I keep thinking Jonny Storm wax played by a different Michael B. Jordan.
I found Jordan and Reg Cathey to be the only cast members who were good in the 2015 FF movie. (Wow, it's been a decade already?)
Exactly, just think of how dramatic the first encounter between Spider-Man and Doom will be when Peter realizes that Doom looks like Tony but isn't him.I don't know why Disney would spend tens of millions on Downey and not make his Doom a Tony Stark variant, at least genetically. When Tony was an infant, Howard and Maria took him on a trip to Latveria or whatever, they were attacked, the kid was adopted, maybe even by people who had zero idea who he was, and he grew up to be Doom, with no real memory of his life before the incident.
That way, he's not meaningfully any kind of Tony Stark anymore, but someone completely different. And yet, once he realizes who his birth parents were, that provides all sorts of drama for him to undergo, as does the drama of characters who knew "our" Tony pleading with him to live up to the life of the guy whose life was taken from him.
Sure, they could make Downey's Doom completely unrelated to Tony Stark, from an entirely different genome, but why throw away all that drama? That sense no make would. IMO.
Yes, with a movie like this you have to find a way to appeal to the most clueless members of the audience and allow them to understand what's going on, and when those people see RDJ they're going to think he's Tony Stark no matter what they say in the movie.
I don't disagree with the overall point but I do think there is a clear difference between RDJ playing two characters who - to our knowledge - will have the same face vs Jeffery Combs who had extensive make up for each role making it hard to identify him if you aren't well aware of the various stylistic quirks to him as an actor which although he does an amazing job of playing each character in a unique way still surface from time to time
I don't know if there will be a clear difference because I don't know how RDJ is going to play it.
Never mind Evans as Johnny Storm first with no make up alteration.
Or another Star Trek example of Tim Russ playing 3 separate characters with limited alterations.
The difference is only in my expectations. I expect RDJ to be different as Doom.
I only say clear difference as I'm basing things on what we know so far from the reveal of him giving me a gut feel he will look like Tony Stark (maybe with some differences but clearly distinguishable as RDJ) - caveated as I said with us not yet knowing for certain.
With Evans - it was only in DP3 that his version of Jonny Storm was grandfathered into the MCU continuity so he had the advantage of being able to be these two different people because at the point he got the role of Cap there was no connection between the franchises due to F4 being Fox whereas this is part of one long continuous story so will naturally draw closer scrutiny.
Tim Russ, Robert Duncan McNeil, and a fair few others throughout Trek's life are closer to being comparable, in my opinion, as they meet my "one continuity" criteria but my "get out" on that front is that they were never the star until they became Tuvok and Paris for example so are again very easy to "forget" - point well made though about their appearances being mostly unchanged.
Playing the Dr Who card used to explain Peter Capaldi's appearing more than once - faces just have a habit of recurring over time and across the universe
Ultimately though I agree with your overall point and I'm excited to see how they do it rather than trying to find fault in advance and you sum it up perfectly with "I expect RDJ to be different as Doom"
Why in the world would you assume that Victor Von Doom, a character whose face is horribly scarred and normally hidden by a mask, would "have the same face" as Tony Stark? Not to mention that Robert Downey Jr. is a chameleonic character actor who's very good at transforming himself -- his character in Oppenheimer, for instance, certainly did not "have the same face" as Tony Stark, Charlie Chaplin, or any of Downey's other diverse characters.
Also, plenty of actors have played more than one role in the Trek franchise without extensive prosthetics, e.g. Majel Barrett, Diana Muldaur, Suzie Plakson, Robert Duncan McNeil, Tim Russ, etc. Then there are the actors like Robert Culp, Jack Cassidy, and Patrick McGoohan who played multiple different Columbo murderers, actors like Vito Scotti and John Fiedler who often played multiple guest roles in the same sitcom, etc. Audiences are not stupid. They can comprehend the idea of an actor playing more than one character. It's not that complicated.
Examples from a time that was not only pre-IMDb but pre-home video recording are about as helpful as a chocolate teapot, unless it transpires that Patrick McGoohan was paid $100m to return to the Columbo cinematic universe.
You know what, I almost wrote "likely with some sort of facial scarring" but I'm leaning towards them toning that down to avoid the trope of "disfigured and disabled = evil" that has been called out in recent years.
For Oppenheimer RDJ was significantly aged using make up but is still recognisably RDJ - I could believe that it was Stark in 20 years time (similar to Chris Evan's aging in Endgame)
"The same face" was arguably clumsy on my part but I meant it in comparison to Jeffrey Combs who was always under significant make up/prosthetics such that if you didn't follow Trek closely you wouldn't immediately think the characters were played by the same actor. Michael Dorn and Armin Shimmerman in Far Beyond the Stars are two where without their make up a non-Trekkie might not at first realise that they are Work and Quark.
One thing though in your first paragraph which I think deserves highlighting is "Robert Downey Jr. is a chameleonic character actor who's very good at transforming himself" - could not agree more and that is why my ultimate point was that regardless of whether or not they transform him through make up I am excited to see how RDJ transforms himself through the craft
To your second point - see my post where I agreed with Fireproof about how it has never been an issue in Trek however it is also the case that most of them played one-shot characters or at least played characters who were not the centrepiece of the franchise - this would be more akin to William Shatner appearing in DS9 as Admiral Ross in my opinion.
Key point though mate - I'm not arguing the opposite side to you and have never raised that as an issue (nor the opposite side of characters being played by more than one actor which is arguably more jarring); I'm just expressing my opinion that having your MVP of the first decade of the franchise come back to play a new and significant role is going to raise some eyebrows.
All said and done though - so long as the story is good and the performance is good (which come on, its RDJ of course it will be) it won't be a problem.
I keep seeing people arguing about how smart audiences are, and they really, really aren't, as events of the last few years have shown over and over again. And when you're making a movie like the Avengers movies, you have to make it accessible to the absolute dumbest members of the audience, and those people are going to be very, very dumb.
Of course his face is recognizable, but it's missing the point to think that the audience has to be literally unable to recognize an actor. The illusion just has to be enough to make the audience willing to choose to play along with it. And Downey can easily do that with his acting, makeup or no makeup.
So what? As long as the story is done well, the audience will get immersed in it and will forget any such concerns within minutes. That's the whole point of fiction, to create an illusion well enough that the audience is willing to suspend disbelief and set aside their real-world knowledge to play along with the story.
Jordan was the best part of the film and a better Johnny than Evans.I stand corrected.
He was bad in the 3rd Fox FF film and given how well he played his role in the MCU Black Panther film, I keep thinking Jonny Storm wax played by a different Michael B. Jordan.
(I'm a HUGE FF fan, but even I couldn't sit through and finish watching the 3rd Fox Ff film.
I actually liked those early Fantastic Four movies and saw both of them at the theater. But they are also ancient in terms of relevance today. Nobody really talks about them. MCU changed the entire genre and lots of those early to mid 2000's movies that aren't named X-Men or Spiderman have sort of been forgotten. Especially by young people who seem to have almost zero interest in anything made before 2016.
I don't think you have to dumb them down. But I do think they prefer a certain kind of comic book movie. Stuff more grounded and familiar which is usually sexy people in tights and capes fighting a over the top baddie. The more artistic you go the more niche you can make it and that doesn't appeal to masses as much.
