Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Grendelsbayne]

It doesn't feel that way. The first movie was a cultural event. It also felt kind of empty due to the death of Chadwick. It also doesn't have what one could argue as the best villain in the MCU in Killmonger. Also it is a post Endgame movie that was happening at time when MCU fatigue was starting to really become a thing. I think the main reason it made money was because it was a sequel to such a iconic movie but that in itself doesn't make it iconic. I would argue they only had two movies that reached the levels of being a event movie and that would be Spiderman 4 and of course the Deadpool movie. The third one would not even be a movie but the show WandaVision.

Wakanda Forever was no less of a cultural event than Winter Soldier, Ragnarok, Guardians 1 or 3, etc.

You're the one making it feel small by insisting it must measure up to the first Black Panther (which was always going to be impossible even with a universally beloved movie starring Boseman) and anything less is 'mid'.

 

[Jayson1]

But by being lesser than those movies is what makes it mid. Granted I do think the movie itself isn't all that bad. It's not a terrible movie for the most part. It was about as good as you could expect due to the situation. Also in many ways the movie being as depressing as it is because of the actors death also makes it one that is a little harder in terms of rewatching. But I still think having a Black Panther movie without Black Panther in it and also not being able to match it;s iconic first movie does take it down a notch.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

But I still think having a Black Panther movie without Black Panther in it ...

She was very much in it.

 

[Thestral]

Also it would not be "No Way Home." For one thing Spiderman is no longer a young boy. Plus everyone's memories have been wiped and they don't know him. He has no more friends or family. Also this Tony Stark is not really Tony Stark. The dynamic is different and what the other Avengers bring to the movie would also be different.

You suggested Doctor Doom would pretend to be a hero (Tony Stark) from another world - like Mysterio. And he proves himself by dealing with a serious threat (Kang), and claims he wants to protect the world from a bigger threat - like Mysterio. Spidey has to figure out that he's a bad guy and is actually the threat - just like with Mysterio.

The core of the movie would be an emotionally-hurting Spidey and bonding with a father figure only to be betrayed when he finds out the truth - just like Peter and Mysterio.

The stakes are different as are the details, but it's essentially the same plot.

 

[Jayson1]

Everyone likes Shuri but she was not a good fit in the role. I don't like the idea of recast either like some say. I think they were just kind of screwed. It's one of the reasons why I am more excited at the prospect of doing a tv series set in Wakanda than having another Black Panther movie. If they were to do another movie I would bring back Killmonger as a reformed man who takes on the mantle because the idea of making a movie around Micheal B Jordan is actually exciting and it's the type of hook that would create some amazing buzz for the movie. Who wouldn't want to see that movie?

 

[Jayson1]

You suggested Doctor Doom would pretend to be a hero (Tony Stark) from another world - like Mysterio. And he proves himself by dealing with a serious threat (Kang), and claims he wants to protect the world from a bigger threat - like Mysterio. Spidey has to figure out that he's a bad guy and is actually the threat - just like with Mysterio.

The core of the movie would be an emotionally-hurting Spidey and bonding with a father figure only to be betrayed when he finds out the truth - just like Peter and Mysterio.

The stakes are different as are the details, but it's essentially the same plot.

Okay I can see that as a issue. Perhaps I wouldn't go with the pretend to be a hero angle. But the core idea of them boding I still think works.

 

[Commander Troi]

I thought the end spell was for everyone to forget Peter Parker, not Spider-Man?

 

[Mage]

I thought the end spell was for everyone to forget Peter Parker, not Spider-Man?

But with Peter and Spider-Man being the same person for the Avengers, what does that do?

 

[Nerys Myk]

But with Peter and Spider-Man being the same person for the Avengers, what does that do?

What ever the writers want.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Everyone likes Shuri but she was not a good fit in the role. I don't like the idea of recast either like some say. I think they were just kind of screwed. It's one of the reasons why I am more excited at the prospect of doing a tv series set in Wakanda than having another Black Panther movie. If they were to do another movie I would bring back Killmonger as a reformed man who takes on the mantle because the idea of making a movie around Micheal B Jordan is actually exciting and it's the type of hook that would create some amazing buzz for the movie. Who wouldn't want to see that movie?

You know, it's okay to say "I don't like" and "I'd prefer" and "I'd be excited if". No need to pretend you have any unique insight into what the majority of the audience liked or disliked.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Who wouldn't want to see that movie?

Me.
I couldn't stand Killmonger. He served his purpose but I was actually disappointed to have to see him again What If.

Michael B Jordan, though, is an amazing actor. I'd rather watch his Human Torch variant return than Killmonger. Or get him to play a new Kang. Or mo-cap him as anything new.

However, this is just personal opinion. Others will probably differ, but I won't speak for them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I didn't mind Shuri stepping into the role of Black Panther. She brings a different vibe than T'Challa. Which is good. OTOH, Riri seemed tacked on. You could see the seams of "hey lets set up this other thing". That stuff needs to be organic to work well.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

My guess would be bringing back Killmonger to take over as Black Panther at this point would probably cause more confusion than excitement.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Of particular note, they teased how the show is, in some ways, even darker than the original run,

Promising.

I doubt it. Character is not popular enough. If they were going to add a few characters that are sort of well received but maybe not big names I think they would go with Ms Marvel or Kate Bishop. It is curious as to who the lineup will even be and who is still a Avenger. My lineup would be

1 Spiderman
2 Hulk
3 Thor
4 Doctor Strange
5 Wolverine
6 Kate Bishop
7 Ms Marvel
8 Ant Man
9 Shang Chi
10 Okoye

With a cameo from Deadpool.

I would dump some of that line up, and I see you eventually mentioned...

As for Sam Wilson as Captain America. I did kind of forget about him. I think his role will be defined by how popular the new Captain America movie is.

On the production side, Mackie has put as much work into his character and building on the MCU as much as most who were ever cast in this franchise. That, and in-universe, he's the symbol of the Avengers, so if Disney wanted to brand their collective foreheads with "controversy", they would leave Mackie's Cap out of the next Avengers film.

The other issue is the number of Avengers they feel the movie should have, and also the fact that with Sam Rogers gone and Tony Stark are not in the movie Your basically making your first Avengers movie without those two core characters and also your also trying to make the MCU recover from Phase 4. The movie needs more to promote than just Downey Jr as Doctor Doom.

Whether or not the MCU recovers from phase four is anyone's guess, but Disney should have been prepared for life after two actors called it quits.

Another big question is who is the main lead. I think it will be Spiderman. In part due to his connection to Tony Stark and having him face someone who might be another version Tony Stark as the baddie I think makes sense.

It makes no sense to shove Spidey-Lad into any lead role in the next Avengers film. From a production standpoint, it would appear to be the worst kind of fan service, and as noted earlier, if Wilson's Cap is not the main lead for in universe and cultural reasons which have been argued since his streaming series (i.e. the fight against those still pissed off that Mackie is Captain America), then Disney should go ahead and burn their foreheads with the "controversy" brand. Moreover, in-universe, Spider-Man has zero experience as a leader, lacks the kind of necessary tactical mind seen with former soldiers (as seen with Wilson and Rogers) a group would need. It cannot be a team of superpowers blasting in every direction with no leadership.

 

[Christopher]

OTOH, Riri seemed tacked on.

She was not. Riri was an exemplar of the young African-diaspora people that T'Challa took Wakanda public in order to help and support, so she was a living embodiment of T'Challa's legacy and aspirations. It was essential that the inventor of the vibranium detector be someone who meant something to Shuri and the Wakandans, someone they had a motivation to defend and care about, otherwise there would've been no conflict between them and Namor. Also, Riri represented who Shuri had been, so her presence embodied Shuri's tension between her old role as the genius inventor and her new role as leader and Black Panther. On a character level, on an emotional level, on a thematic level, she was absolutely the right character to have there, so yes, it absolutely was organic. She was also a fun and likeable presence, so I don't see what there is to object to.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She was not. Riri was an exemplar of the young African-diaspora people that T'Challa took Wakanda public in order to help and support, so she was a living embodiment of T'Challa's legacy and aspirations. It was essential that the inventor of the vibranium detector be someone who meant something to Shuri and the Wakandans, someone they had a motivation to defend and care about, otherwise there would've been no conflict between them and Namor. Also, Riri represented who Shuri had been, so her presence embodied Shuri's tension between her old role as the genius inventor and her new role as leader and Black Panther. On a character level, on an emotional level, on a thematic level, she was absolutely the right character to have there, so yes, it absolutely was organic. She was also a fun and likeable presence, so I don't see what there is to object to.

All could have been done without the Ironheart tack on

 

[Christopher]

All could have been done without the Ironheart tack on

It's really weird to object to a Black Panther movie setting up a new character when Black Panther was introduced in a Captain America movie.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's really weird to object to a Black Panther movie setting up a new character when Black Panther was introduced in a Captain America movie.

Felt right there, less mercenary. Don't know why. Perhaps it's just me and my history with Black Panther.

 

[Christopher]

Felt right there, less mercenary. Don't know why. Perhaps it's just me and my history with Black Panther.

If anything, it's the other way around. Riri is the perfect character in BPWF because she represents T'Challa's legacy and Shuri's past. But there was no such connection to justify including Black Panther in Civil War; he was just included because Marvel wanted to set up his movie, same as with Spider-Man's inclusion.

Not that there was anything wrong with that. You can take disparate characters or elements and find a way to give them meaning and an organic connection in a story. That's just part of the creative process, taking bits and pieces and inventing a structure that unifies them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If anything, it's the other way around. Riri is the perfect character in BPWF because she represents T'Challa's legacy and Shuri's past. But there was no such connection to justify including Black Panther in Civil War; he was just included because Marvel wanted to set up his movie, same as with Spider-Man's inclusion.

Not that there was anything wrong with that. You can take disparate characters or elements and find a way to give them meaning and an organic connection in a story. That's just part of the creative process, taking bits and pieces and inventing a structure that unifies them.

Like I said, I have "history" with Black Panther. He's integral to Marvel.