Because killing the Black best friend isn't tasteless?
Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
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Because killing the Black best friend isn't tasteless?
Less so than a classic "Stuffed in the Fridge". At least here Lemar was given more characterization and importance than he ever had in the comics (where he's barely been seen for 30 years) so his death meant something to everyone and he wasn't immediately forgotten.
Less so but still tasteless and outdated, in a show about how African American heroes are mistreated
Who said she was? It was a joke, hence the "
"Who said she was? It was a joke, hence the "
I understand. I guess I've just run into too many defensive people online
Truth be told I don't recall exactly where Kate ended up.
Iirc it was some hokey ending with Clint's insta-family after arresting her own mom
I quite liked all the characterization on Hawkeye. No, it wasn't really a story about Kate growing a great deal (though she did have to face the fact that her childish assumptions about who the bad guy is were insanely wrong). The main appeal of it was in the way the different characters interacted with each. How Kate came to understand Clint and help him through some of his issues and how Clint helped both Yelena and Maya understand the reality behind their revenge backstories.
The major problem I have with Hawkeye that made it one of the biggest disappointments for me on D+ is that all of this good stuff is constantly interrupted by boring action scenes featuring some of the worst villains in MCU history (the tracksuit maffia), and the interminably dull 'mystery' centered on Kate's family.
Anyway, the return of the Hawkeye discussion reminds me that I also meant to come back and reply to the Secret Invasion discussion from the other day, since multiple people were honestly asking what is really even wrong with SI.
The answer is:
The major problem I have with Hawkeye that made it one of the biggest disappointments for me on D+ is that all of this good stuff is constantly interrupted by boring action scenes featuring some of the worst villains in MCU history (the tracksuit maffia), and the interminably dull 'mystery' centered on Kate's family.
Anyway, the return of the Hawkeye discussion reminds me that I also meant to come back and reply to the Secret Invasion discussion from the other day, since multiple people were honestly asking what is really even wrong with SI.
The answer is:
Secret Invasion is a spy thriller with no thrills and some of the lamest 'spy' scenes in history, featuring an Invasion of the Body Snatchers style enemy that could literally be anyone and do anything but who ultimately never uses this ability to do anything more interesting than frame Fury for murder. It has literally nothing whatsoever to say about its title character other than a constant 'Nick Fury is too old and not himself anymore', which Fury then seemingly disproves, but then the show just turns around and repeats the same character beats again. And then again. And again.
On top of all of which comes the fact that the entire setup is fundamentally dependent on the claim that Fury just did nothing whatsoever to keep the promise he made to the Skrulls in Captain Marvel, Gravik's entire plan is utter nonsense, and the climax hinges on Fury expecting the president to take his word over Rhodes' word for no particular logical reason while the wildly underdeveloped daughter of Talos is transformed into the most powerful character in the MCU (using some of the worst FX in the MCU) just to kill a single skrull.
On top of all of which comes the fact that the entire setup is fundamentally dependent on the claim that Fury just did nothing whatsoever to keep the promise he made to the Skrulls in Captain Marvel, Gravik's entire plan is utter nonsense, and the climax hinges on Fury expecting the president to take his word over Rhodes' word for no particular logical reason while the wildly underdeveloped daughter of Talos is transformed into the most powerful character in the MCU (using some of the worst FX in the MCU) just to kill a single skrull.
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Obsessed much?
I didn't see how Kate learned anything. She ignored her idols crimes but tore up the city because her dad died. And accused the wrong guy
Imo Secret Invasion was far more watchable. We saw Fury struggle with his decisions whereas Clint and Kate just covered everything up
Rogue isn't anywhere near the level of power we're talking about. And if the endgame of a spy thriller starring Nick Fury had been to force Jean Grey to use the full power of the Phoenix to kill a single skrull, then yes there would still be these complaints.
It's utterly non-sensical that either of the superskrulls was put on that level of power just for a story which is clearly far more suited to being street-level and down to earth in the first place.
Lead character, sorry.
She learned that her natural assumptions about who was guilty were wrong. She didn't keep accusing the wrong guy, she put her own mother behind bars instead. And I don't see how she in any way 'tore up the city because her dad died'. Outside of stealing the Ronin costume, which she didn't do because her dad died, every action scene was caused by the villains.
As for Fury struggling with his decisions, that might mean something if his decisions ever actually meant anything at all. It was all just generic busy work marking time until the end of the show when he easily waltzes into contact with the already nearly assassinated US president like its no big deal and just tells him to not trust his literal right-hand military guy and the president just listens to him because why not (even though the president has seen footage of Fury executing Maria Hill at the Russia attack site where everything started)?
And then he goes home to his wife having - wait for it - learned nothing and not grown at all. The best case for character development I can give him is he and his wife seem to have a slightly better understanding at the end of the show, but the show really kind of frames that as as much or more her problem than his. So if that's really your problem with Kate, you can add Fury to the same list.
Idk while Fury could've learned more I thought it seemed like he acknowledged he was in over his head when he asked Gi'ah for help. I do think SI had a poor ending
And Kate and Clint caused collateral damage during their fights. I don't recall her learning anything from having her mom arrested. She reacted like Clint's crimes were nothing. She just fangirled him the whole time. Whereas Fury didn't just accept whatever people told him and vice versa.
I struggle to see anything interesting about Kate. Even Kamala did the fangirl thing better by not being a selfish brat
And Kate and Clint caused collateral damage during their fights. I don't recall her learning anything from having her mom arrested. She reacted like Clint's crimes were nothing. She just fangirled him the whole time. Whereas Fury didn't just accept whatever people told him and vice versa.
I struggle to see anything interesting about Kate. Even Kamala did the fangirl thing better by not being a selfish brat
Acknowledging you're in over your head isn't growing. Especially not when it's followed up by him running right back to space with the only difference between the start of the show and the end being that this time he took his wife with him.
Kate learning that her instincts aren't perfect also isn't really growing, but it's basically on the same level of 'learning' the Fury did. With the major difference between them being that Kate isn't the only major character in the show and her story doesn't require her to grow and learn a lot. The show still works perfectly fine in terms of characterization despite her limited growth. Whereas Fury is far and away the star of the show and his story (and with it the entire show) doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in large part because of his complete lack of character arc.
Every Superhero ever has caused collateral damage during fights. The Avengers once contributed to the wholesale destruction of an entire country. It's pretty much foundational to the genre. What matters for the characters is that they try to prevent people from getting hurt and to limit the possible damage where they can and they don't irresponsibly start superhero fights in crowded civilian areas. This show meets that standard just as well as the vast majority of the genre, and better than plenty of individual examples (including examples that I - and most people, as far as I can tell - would consider better shows/movies overall, like the Guardians of the Galaxy for instance).
As for her reactions: Your constant repetition that she 'didn't learn anything from her mom's arrest' is nonsense. She learned that her mom was a villain and that the guy she thought was evil was actually the good guy which means that she learned her instincts aren't perfect and fighting evil is messy.
Is that incredibly basic and generic? Yes. Does it significantly change who she is? No. Because the whole point of her story from the beginning is that she already has the heart of a hero and she's not going to let the world hold her back from being true to that. That's what her story is about. Overcoming the world holding her back from what she knows she wants to be (her mother included). Her story is not about her learning to be a better person, no matter how much you want to judge it on that yardstick.
Also, she didn't completely freak out about Clint's past because she was exercising compassion and helping Clint overcome his demons. That's also a thing that superheros very often do, even for people who had far worse pasts than Clint.
Fury's entire story is about uncovering an evil skrull conspiracy. Of course nearly every single episode of it involves him verbally sparring with the bad guys. That's what spy thrillers *do*. That still doesn't change the fact that all of that back and forth is horribly written and completely unconvincing with the only real exception in the entire show being the scene between Fury and Rhodey - which is entirely undermined by the revelation that Rhodey isn't really Rhodey so everything he said in that scene is pure bs to play mind games on Fury.
Also, Kate absolutely did not just accept whatever people told her. If she had, there would've been no story at all because she'd never have tried to become a superhero at all.
If I'm being honest here, it sounds like what you struggle with is the ability to maintain any sort of objectivity whatsoever towards Kate because you just hate her personality.
I already explained why I don't like her. You haven't in any way indicated how she actually grew. If you disagree then just say that. Kate only showed compassion to him because he saved her. She never questioned whether he was wrong and just blindly followed you. You keep saying over again she learned and didn't jaur follow but you haven't substantiated that
I don't accuse you of just blindly hating Secret Invasion even though I think your criticisms are weak and subjective
I don't accuse you of just blindly hating Secret Invasion even though I think your criticisms are weak and subjective
I never said she grew. I said her story isn't about her growing no matter how much you want that to be the case.
She did learn some things and she did not just take everything everyone told at face value automatically like you claim, which is also the absolute max I can possibly say for Fury who also did not really grow at all. With, again, the major difference between them being that he is the only star of his show and his show really doesn't work at all without him having some sort of character arc. Whereas her show does, because she doesn't have to be the one growing because there are other major characters in play.
Kate is at least much of the star, and again, you haven't pointed how she learned.
Fury is the star but he's a lot more dynamic than Kate, or Clint who's entirely Storyline is just covering up his crimes from his previous storyline. That also matters in a series because if the main characters aren't watchable their arc isn't really worth watching
I've explicitly stated it multiple times. I'm not going to keep repeating it because you refuse to acknowledge its existence.
He really isn't dynamic in this show at all. Now - SLJ is a great actor. He's dynamic as hell in, say, The Winter Soldier. In this show he's just moping and dead-staring his way through every episode. He is vastly less watchable than any of the main characters in Hawkeye, with only a very few moments giving any real exception to that - and everyone of those moments was him bouncing off of either Talos (who died halfway through) or Rhodey (who he only had the one actually good scene with, and that scene was also rendered entirely hollow and pointless by the Rhodey plot twist).