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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


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Shane Black says Iron Man 3 female villain was cut because of toy sales

Shane Black revealed that in his initial drafts, the Killian character was a woman — until Marvel told him to change Killian’s gender because of fears that a female toy wouldn’t sell as well.

“There was an early draft of Iron Man 3 where we had an inkling of a problem,” Black told Uproxx. “Which is that we had a female character who was the villain in the draft. We had finished the script and we were given a no-holds-barred memo saying that cannot stand we’ve changed our minds because, after consulting, we’ve decided that toy won’t sell as well if it’s a female. So we had to change the entire script because of toy making.”

Black added that other female characters — like Brandt (Stephanie Szostak) and Maya Hansen (Rebecca Hall) — had larger roles in earlier drafts.

“New York called and said, ‘That’s money out of our bank,’” Black said. “In the earlier draft, the woman was essentially Killian — and they didn’t want a female Killian, they wanted a male Killian. I liked the idea, like Remington Steele, you think it’s the man but at the end, the woman has been running the whole show. They just said, ‘no way.’”

Black also emphasized that the memos came from “Marvel corporate,” not current Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige.

“If you ever say anything about decisions made at Marvel, I hope you’ll qualify it by saying that Kevin Feige is the guy who gets it right,” he added. “And I don’t know if it was [Marvel Entertainment CEO Ike Perlmutter], I don’t know who it was. They never told me who made that decision, we just got that memo one day and it was about toy sales. That’s all I know.”

Not a surprise at all. Toy sales are still a strong part of the earnings of entertainment licenses, and gender interest remains a part of that, as seen for more than a half century. Aside from longtime strong toy subjects like Wonder Woman and Jean Grey, female characters will not get the same representation as toy subjects--specifically action figures, as it is still generates most of it sales from the male demographic.

Gender identity still plays a major role in how films and merchandising is handled, and Black's comments simply state a long-known fact.
 
I wonder if it's A reason rather than the whole reason.

Would it play good in the movie if Iron Man cut a woman's arm off?
 
Shane Black says Iron Man 3 female villain was cut because of toy sales

Not a surprise at all. Toy sales are still a strong part of the earnings of entertainment licenses, and gender interest remains a part of that, as seen for more than a half century. Aside from longtime strong toy subjects like Wonder Woman and Jean Grey, female characters will not get the same representation as toy subjects--specifically action figures, as it is still generates most of it sales from the male demographic.

Gender identity still plays a major role in how films and merchandising is handled, and Black's comments simply state a long-known fact.
It's kind of a chicken or the egg situation, though, isn't it? Do companies not market action figures towards girls because the girls are not interested in them, or do girls not have more interest in them because companies rarely market towards them? It seems like when female action figures are offered, like individual figures of Rey and Captain Phasma, sales are through the roof, yet for some reason prominent female characters are frequently excluded from box sets of action figures.

For example, the Guardians of the Galaxy hero set included all of the main characters except Gamora. The Force Awakens 4 & up 6-figure pack included Finn, Kylo Ren, Poe, Chewie, and two random Stormtroopers instead of Rey (they tried to say that was done to prevent spoilers, but you could have simply not included a lightsaber and it wouldn't have given anything away). She was included in some other packs, though. The X-Men "Mutant Hall of Fame" apparently doesn't include Jean Grey, Storm, or Rogue, but does include Sauron, Juggernaut, and Sabertooth. The Avengers: Age of Ultron set doesn't include Black Widow or Scarlett Witch (it also doesn't include Quiksilver, but Scarlett Witch was already decided to be a returning character, so it would make more sense to include her). The Lego Movie set excludes Wyldstyle and the TMNT set excludes April O'Neil.

It's not even solely a matter of excluding girls who would like to have female action figures to play with, I'm sure plenty of boys would like to play with them as well if given more opportunities. I always got just as much enjoyment out of playing with Princess Leia or Scarlett, Lady Jaye, and Baroness from GIJoe as I did the male figures. Rey's character has been hugely popular with boys and girls. And maybe if boys were presented with more prominent and positive examples of female characters like Rey, there wouldn't be any kind of stigma, whether real or imagined, against playing with them.

So I don't see it as just some throw up your hands and say "That's just the way it is" kind of thing. If you create more prominent and positive female roles, and if you actively market female action figures, then more girls (and boys) will buy them.
 
I'm not seeing how it would have made that much difference really.

Perhaps, not. I wouldn't have minded, myself, but I know some people take exception to doing things to a woman but have no problem with it happening to a man.

I don't know how a man figure would sell better than a woman figure, but I'm certainly no expert on what sells.
 
It's kind of a chicken or the egg situation, though, isn't it? Do companies not market action figures towards girls because the girls are not interested in them, or do girls not have more interest in them because companies rarely market towards them? It seems like when female action figures are offered, like individual figures of Rey and Captain Phasma, sales are through the roof, yet for some reason prominent female characters are frequently excluded from box sets of action figures.

Girls are definitely interested. I see a lot of evidence of that online. Lots of girls are frustrated that the toy companies don't recognize their interest in action/adventure toys or construction toys or the like.


So I don't see it as just some throw up your hands and say "That's just the way it is" kind of thing. If you create more prominent and positive female roles, and if you actively market female action figures, then more girls (and boys) will buy them.

Absolutely. Comics and SF fandom these days is half-female and increasingly ethnically diverse, and toy companies and movie studios and publishers are still frustratingly slow to recognize that reality.
 
The whole thing with the companies not wanting to sell action figures of female characters is frustrating. I have to wonder at this point if the whole reason they have trouble selling them is because they don't make many of them, or market them very well. In a property where the women or girl characters are just as prominent as the men or boys, then I don't see why kids would be less willing to buy their figures. I would think as long they liked the character, they would get the figure, regardless of if it's gender. I know I was that way with my Trek figures when I was a kid.
We have the Marvel Legends figures of Spider-Woman, Mockingbird, and the female Beetle and I've been tempted to buy one or two of them, just as a way to show support for women action figures.
I noticed that the figures for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows doesn't include an April O'Neil figure, while they first movie's did.
 
It's kind of a chicken or the egg situation, though, isn't it? Do companies not market action figures towards girls because the girls are not interested in them, or do girls not have more interest in them because companies rarely market towards them? It seems like when female action figures are offered, like individual figures of Rey and Captain Phasma, sales are through the roof, yet for some reason prominent female characters are frequently excluded from box sets of action figures.

The studies / retail figures used by toy manufacturers do not support the idea of girls being a significant consumer base for action figures (in general), and its never been that strong. In fact, one study (from USA Toy Experts) suggests that there is a definite decline in girls' interest in action figures, compared to that of their surveyed mothers memories of their interest at the same age range.

In the case of Rey/Phasma, in Star Wars action figure consumers, males still make up the vast majority of Star Wars action figure consumers, which is no different than the figures seen during Kenner's original 1978-86 production of their trilogy-based 3 3/4 inch line, vehicles & playsets. The link in your post:

Richard Gottlieb, from Global Toy Experts, attributed this to a belief in the toy industry that boys won’t play with girl action figures, and that “Star Wars” has always been considered a “boy’s brand.”

...because SW always was a "boy's brand" beyond any doubt. Unlike the situation of superhero-based action figures, for The Force Awakens, you must zero in on certain facts about sell outs:
  1. It was a new Star Wars film, so interest in characters would be high, just as in 1999, Toys 'R' Us' pre-release sales of the Darth Maul figure sold out thanks to long lines of consumers forming before the rare midnight opening of the toy retailer.
  2. Rey was advertised as one of the lead, new characters, so if (for example) her figure was shortpacked in shipments, or under produced, it would be easy for the figure to sell fast. If her figure were mass produced, the sales might've taken a different direction. Next, in keeping with SW toy tradition, Phasma was the new masked villain (more than Ren, since he spends most of the film unmasked), so on appearance alone, there was pre-release interest in her, so again, if she was shortpacked or under produced, that figure would sell out in any case.


Rey's character has been hugely popular with boys and girls. And maybe if boys were presented with more prominent and positive examples of female characters like Rey, there wouldn't be any kind of stigma, whether real or imagined, against playing with them.

So I don't see it as just some throw up your hands and say "That's just the way it is" kind of thing. If you create more prominent and positive female roles, and if you actively market female action figures, then more girls (and boys) will buy them.

It is not a matter of not having more prominent and positive female roles, since many exist on TV and on the big screen. Some female characters are not the kind that will lead to empty pegs at Walmart. That's a fact based purely on some characters having less appeal than others. You cannot pull the strings of audiences' mind to make that happen in an inorganic fashion.

To the point, there's been a Wonder Woman & Batgirl figure of some kind available in nearly every decade since Ideal toys had the DC license in 1967. By no means were they the only female characters in the 60s, or the 70s (where there was an explosion of new female characters during comics' so-named Bronze Age), and forward, but their high visibility/accessibility never meant every one of the other female characters (aside from Jean Grey and to a lesser degree, She Hulk) were all going to rise to the top in terms of popularity. There's no "equality" in audience interest, and never has been, and toy manufacturers rarely invest in characters their consumer base does not support (in great numbers) in its native source. When the superhero characters are supported, you tend to see numerous action figures based on the characters, such as (for example) DC Direct / Mattel's generations of Batgirl, Wonder Woman and Supergirl figures, and Toy Biz/Marvel Legends' various Jean Grey, Storm, and Invisible Woman figures.

Finally, Black points the finger at the corporate end of Marvel, but do you think their resistance to a female villain (and toy concerns) is not using data that supports the directive?
 
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The whole thing with the companies not wanting to sell action figures of female characters is frustrating. I have to wonder at this point if the whole reason they have trouble selling them is because they don't make many of them, or market them very well.

I remember seeing a comment from someone in the industry who said the stores had a lot to do with it -- that there were Rey figures made for The Force Awakens, but the retailers didn't order very many because they didn't expect to sell many. And then they sold out almost immediately and it became clear there was a massive demand that wasn't being met. The toy manufacturers recognized the need for the figures, but the retailers didn't.

So yeah, it's more about expectations and assumptions within the industry than it is about the actual interests of the consumers.
 
It's not even solely a matter of excluding girls who would like to have female action figures to play with, I'm sure plenty of boys would like to play with them as well if given more opportunities.
It's a serious topic deserving of substantive discussion, but since y'all seem to have that covered I'll just say...

....*snicker*

:lol:
 
The whole thing with the companies not wanting to sell action figures of female characters is frustrating. I have to wonder at this point if the whole reason they have trouble selling them is because they don't make many of them, or market them very well. In a property where the women or girl characters are just as prominent as the men or boys, then I don't see why kids would be less willing to buy their figures.

I'll repost this:It is not a matter of not having more prominent and positive female roles, since many exist on TV and on the big screen. Some female characters are not the kind that will lead to empty pegs at Walmart. That's a fact based purely on some characters having less appeal than others. You cannot pull the strings of audiences' mind to make that happen in an inorganic fashion.

Moreover, Shane Black points the finger at the corporate end of Marvel, but do you think their resistance to a female villain (and toy concerns) is not using data that supports the directive?
 
I always got the Leia figures in the classic Kenner smaller figure sets...but the 12" one with the stylable hair I wouldn't have touched with a 10-foot gaffi stick.
 
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