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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  • Total voters
    185
I've had several friends, who know me as a devoted Star Wars fan, who have made a point of telling me how much they enjoyed Ahsoka despite not being familiar with any of the animation. Everything that the audience needed to know for the Ahsoka show was provided in the Ahsoka show.

I mean, while it's obvious that all these characters have a past together, it wasn't necessary for the audience of this show to know every detail of it. Just like it was obvious back in 1977 that Anakin and Obi-Wan had a past together, but did we need to know all the details of that story for the story at hand? Did we need to know about Han and Chewie's past? Episode 4 gave us all we needed to know to follow the story in Episode 4. The same with Ahsoka.

I mean, all of that stuff about Ahsoka training Sabine was new, even to fans of the animation. But I didn't feel like I had missed some important chapter of the story. The story itself gave me all I needed to fill in the gaps.
 
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I knew there was more in their past but I didn't watch rebels before that. But I did feel it did enough to bring everyone up to speed without being too much
 
MikHutch said:
Well a-list is a somewhat subjective term. She was the leader of the Avengers back in the day.
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According to what I can find, the list of characters who've led the Avengers includes Sunspot, Havok, and Dr. Druid. That in-universe role has no correlation to the real-life prominence or popularity of a character, which is obviously more of a factor when considering who gets to star in a movie or TV series.


I think the point about racism stands more about Black and other PoC heroes were historically treated as afterthoughts. Kamala comes in a more open minded and supportive era.
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But, again, the exact same era that gave us the Ms. Marvel TV series also gave us series and movies with lead actors such as Anthony Mackie, Jeffrey Wright, Letitia Wright, and Samuel L. Jackson. So I don't see how you can look at just one example of a black character not being a series lead and conclude that Marvel is being racist. In earlier phases, when Perlmutter still had influence, yeah, sure, but in that era we wouldn't have gotten anything with a female or non-white lead. Since he was gone, Marvel has been much better at representation, particularly where Black characters are concerned.
 
Christopher said:
According to what I can find, the list of characters who've led the Avengers includes Sunspot, Havok, and Dr. Druid. That in-universe role has no correlation to the real-life prominence or popularity of a character, which is obviously more of a factor when considering who gets to star in a movie or TV series.
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Well, there's not 0 correlation

QUOTE="Christopher, post: 14634407, member: 295"]But, again, the exact same era that gave us the Ms. Marvel TV series also gave us series and movies with lead actors such as Anthony Mackie, Jeffrey Wright, Letitia Wright, and Samuel L. Jackson. So I don't see how you can look at just one example of a black character not being a series lead and conclude that Marvel is being racist. In earlier phases, when Perlmutter still had influence, yeah, sure, but in that era we wouldn't have gotten anything with a female or non-white lead. Since he was gone, Marvel has been much better at representation, particularly where Black characters are concerned.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying "Marvel is racist", though. But tbf she's also a Black woman, who are historically not well represented in fiction even among people of color

Plus even these recent projects with PoC leads have their issues. FaWS killed Lemar in a very token way, for example
 
Turtletrekker said:
I mean, all of that stuff about Ahsoka training Sabine was new, even to fans of the animation. But I didn't feel like I had missed some important chapter of the story. The story itself gave me all I needed to fill in the gaps.
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The funny part is that I've seen several Star Wars fans who aren't up on the animated shows (which is fine) rather loudly complain "I shouldn't have to watch a whole other show to understand the history between these to" when as you say, there is no established relationship; indeed I don't think those two ever directly exchanged a single line of dialogue before now. I think some people are just mad at feeling in the dark about something, and are looking for an excuse to complain.
 
Reverend said:
The funny part is that I've seen several Star Wars fans who aren't up on the animated shows (which is fine) rather loudly complain "I shouldn't have to watch a whole other show to understand the history between these to" when as you say, there is no established relationship; indeed I don't think those two ever directly exchanged a single line of dialogue before now. I think some people are just mad at feeling in the dark about something, and are looking for an excuse to complain.
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The "why do I have to watch all this" complaint by SW and MCU fans is almost as annoying as the "why don't they connect these shows" complaint
 
MikHutch said:
I'm not saying "Marvel is racist", though. But tbf she's also a Black woman, who are historically not well represented in fiction even among people of color
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They did a whole big movie last year headlined by Letitia Wright, also featuring Lupita Nyong'o, Angela Bassett, Danai Gurira, Florence Kasumba, and Dominique Thorne, who is getting her own spinoff series. We're not speaking "historically," we're talking specifically about the time frame encompassing Captain Marvel, WandaVision, and The Marvels. That's where the relevant data are found.


Plus even these recent projects with PoC leads have their issues.
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No fair moving the goalposts. The point is strictly about whether Marvel Studios is willing to give lead roles to Black characters in recent or upcoming productions, which they unambiguously are. There's plenty of racism in the world, gods know, but Marvel's record in Phase Four and Five is good enough to justify optimism about its intentions.
 
Christopher said:
They did a whole big movie last year headlined by Letitia Wright, also featuring Lupita Nyong'o, Angela Bassett, Danai Gurira, Florence Kasumba, and Dominique Thorne, who is getting her own spinoff series. We're not speaking "historically," we're talking specifically about the time frame encompassing Captain Marvel, WandaVision, and The Marvels. That's where the relevant data are found.
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Yeah and that's good. Idk why you're so bothered by people pointing out Marvel has a racist past though. It's still the first time a Black woman led an MCU projevt and Ironheart is still not out yet.

Christopher said:
No fair moving the goalposts. The point is strictly about whether Marvel Studios is willing to give lead roles to Black characters in recent or upcoming productions, which they unambiguously are. There's plenty of racism in the world, gods know, but Marvel's record in Phase Four and Five is good enough to justify optimism about its intentions.
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I'm not interested in your "goalpost" talk. This ain't reddit. I don't need a bunch of "not an argument" type arguments. I can expand the point if I feel it's relevant. Idk why you're acting like this. I'm not even really disagreeing with you
 
Reverend said:
The funny part is that I've seen several Star Wars fans who aren't up on the animated shows (which is fine) rather loudly complain "I shouldn't have to watch a whole other show to understand the history between these to" when as you say, there is no established relationship; indeed I don't think those two ever directly exchanged a single line of dialogue before now. I think some people are just mad at feeling in the dark about something, and are looking for an excuse to complain.
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Fans do enjoy being angry, at least on the internet.
 
MikHutch said:
Idk why you're so bothered by people pointing out Marvel has a racist past though.
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Don't make this personal. As I said, it's strictly a question of fact, because we are not talking about the past, we are talking about the time frame in which the character of Monica Rambeau has been present in the MCU, and about what other projects released during that same time frame are informative about Marvel's record of inclusion in that specific time frame.


Idk why you're acting like this.
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Because I care about facts, and you are cherrypicking the data that serve your doom-and-gloom viewpoint and aggressively ignoring the data that argue for a more optimistic interpretation. I find it strange that you're so committed to negativity, even to the point of now beginning to attack me personally just for trying to convince you to be more optimistic. Excuse me for trying to offer you a ray of hope.
 
Christopher said:
Don't make this personal. As I said, it's strictly a question of fact, because we are not talking about the past, we are talking about the time frame in which the character of Monica Rambeau has been present in the MCU, and about what other projects released during that same time frame are informative about Marvel's record of inclusion in that specific time frame.
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The past informs the present. They're not strictly separated. I agree things are getting better but that doesn't m3an everything is fixed


Christopher said:
Because I care about facts, and you are cherrypicking the data that serve your doom-and-gloom viewpoint and aggressively ignoring the data that argue for a more optimistic interpretation. I find it strange that you're so committed to negativity, even to the point of now beginning to attack me personally just for trying to convince you to be more optimistic. Excuse me for trying to offer you a ray of hope.
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I'm not cherrypicking anything. Discussing things like this isn't just some facts you can throw in without any wider context

I'm not trying to be negative or attack your personally. That's not my intention. But I just didn't like that style of argumentation.
 
I find it amusing how things have gone from "Marvel is making too many shows, not all of these characters need shows!" to "Why doesn't this character have a show, must be racism/sexism/somethingism!"
 
The Nightmare Doctor said:
I find it amusing how we go from "Marvel is making too many shows, not all of these characters need shows!" to "Why doesn't this character have a show, must be racism/sexism/somethingism!"
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Most complaints don't make sense. People whine about too many quips in phase 4 despite serious entries like Wakanda Forever then say quipfests like AoU are underrated

Imo marvel isn't making too many shows. Most of the recent shows have more imagination than a lot of the movies. And it's doing a lot better on racial/gender issues but still has a way to go
 
Turtletrekker said:
Well, that's certainly is an opinion. I'm almost afraid to ask, but how is Filoni any different than Feige in that regard?
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Filoni can't let go of his pet characters from the Clone Wars era and Rebels, Feige at least understands how to properly build a universe and move on from one generation to the next.

Frankly, Lucas should have been more like Feige himself.
 
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