Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Grendelsbayne]

Yeah. I don't know what on earth could possibly have ever been improved in movies like Turning Red, Inside Out, Encanto, Raya and the Last Dragon, etc, by just randomly making one of the characters truly evil. They're not that kind of story in the first place.

 

[eschaton]

Yeah. I don't know what on earth could possibly have ever been improved in movies like Turning Red, Inside Out, Encanto, Raya and the Last Dragon, etc, by just randomly making one of the characters truly evil. They're not that kind of story in the first place.

I wasn't saying that those stories, in particular, needed to have true villains. I was saying there's been a notable bias in Disney productions away from nuanced antagonists or antiheroes in favor of more simplistic storytelling models.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I wasn't saying that those stories, in particular, needed to have true villains. I was saying there's been a notable bias in Disney productions away from nuanced antagonists or antiheroes in favor of more simplistic storytelling models.

And I'm saying those are terrible examples for making that point.

Also not sure about the validity of the overall point, given Disney also has used multiple full on villains in their Star Wars content (Snoke, Moff Gideon, Vader, the Emperor, etc), tons of full on villains in their Marvel stuff, and even their other stuff is hardly void of villains (A Wrinkle in Time, for instance, or most if not all of their animated classic live action remakes).

Changes like Cruella or Boba Fett (or Maleficent) are not some kind of signal that real villains are on the outs at Disney. They're just a sign that Disney doesn't want to make a real villain the main star of a show/movie, which has pretty much always been par for the course with most studios, albeit with the occasional exception.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Witness how they neutered Boba Fett, and made him boring.

Return of the Jedi did that.
When he was killed.
Accidentally.
By a blind man.

At least Disney is trying to make him interesting.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Disney has this perennial issue across all of its franchises now that they just don't want to commit to a villain protagonist or even an antihero. They feel like the MC of every story has to be presented sympathetically.

...and that's usually the product of too many modern-day writers who feel every villain cannot be complex (or whatever the equivalent for that is in certain comic book movies) unless they have some discount psychobabble-influenced other side (e.g., as if there's rationalization for the poorly constructed Thanos).

Witness how they neutered Boba Fett, and made him boring.

Agreed; he was created to be a single-purpose character and when that purpose was served, he was killed in ROTJ. Perfect end. Lucas suffered from the same "more-more-more-of-killed-off-characters = more money" disease as various comic book companies that could never leave dead characters in the grave (Norman Osborn at the top of that list).

I firmly believe if the Agatha Harkness show ever actually sees the light of day, she'll be morphed into a good character as well.

I would not be surprised if the series turns out that way.

 

[Set Harth]

Lucas suffered from the same "more-more-more-of-killed-off-characters = more money" disease as various comic book companies that could never leave dead characters in the grave (Norman Osborn at the top of that list).

Disney-owned Lucasfilm brought him back after Lucas was out of the picture.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Or how more recent Disney/Pixar films (Encanto, Raya and the Last Dragon, Seeing Red, Strange World, etc) lacked any real villain at all.

Not to go too far off the beaten path, but I think you completely missed the points of the first three of those films (I can't comment on Strange World since I haven't watched it yet).

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Disney-owned Lucasfilm brought him back after Lucas was out of the picture.

I'm talking about all of the pre-Disney Fett-related books, comics and creating a Fett history that never existed before in the PT, because as Lucas said at the time, he did not know how popular Boba Fett would be (circa TESB's release), and seeing the dollar signs, he responded.

 

[fireproof78]

Return of the Jedi did that.
When he was killed.
Accidentally.
By a blind man.

At least Disney is trying to make him interesting.

Indeed. Give me more of Disney's Fett than what the OT did. The books and comics made him a Star Wars John Wick. I'm more interested in what was put out by Disney than the over the top comics about him.

 

[Set Harth]

I'm talking about all of the pre-Disney Fett-related books, comics and creating a Fett history that never existed before in the PT, because as Lucas said at the time, he did not know how popular Boba Fett would be (circa TESB's release), and seeing the dollar signs, he responded.

Lucas also ruminated on the OT DVD commentary about bringing him back post-Sarlacc.

 

[wayoung]

You can't keep a good merchandising opportunity down.

 

[Dee1891]

Not to defend Disney, but a redemption angle for Boba Fett wasn't exactly the least predictable thing to do. Disney stole a lot of ideas from the pre-Disney Star Wars EU which had already gone there.

A slightly redeemed Boba Fett was more interesting to me than the one-note minor villain that he was in the movies.

The only time I didn't care for Loki was in "Ragnarok". He seemed to have been reduced to a continuing punchline in that film. It's a pity that I didn't care for his DisneyPlus series. A real disappointment to me.

 

[theenglish]

Streaming is a good innovation, but it makes no sense that it's come to be seen as a replacement for other outlets, rather than an addition to them. That's pretty much entirely a function of the greed of executives wanting to corral everything they own under their monopolistic control.

When Netflix first started streaming, I honestly believed that in a few years we'd have access (at reasonable cost) to almost the entire catalogue of film history. That today we'd be watching any movie from the 30s to the 90s we wanted through the aid of a subscription service. We are far short of that. Even non-Hollywood and Independent films can be difficult to find. As a fan of directors like Peter Greenaway, Wim Wenders, and Jim Jarmusch among a half dozen others it is difficult, if not impossible, to find their movies streaming. Some of the films I had to borrow from my library because I couldn't find them streaming were Patton, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Hustler, and the French Connection--all pretty big movies but difficult to find without a Blockbuster down on the corner.

NOTE: Sorry for rambling on this topic. That is all I have to say, but if anyone is interested in starting a thread about how to find obscure movies (which service they're on, best DVD/Blu Ray, etc), message me and I will open one.

 

[theenglish]

A slightly redeemed Boba Fett was more interesting to me than the one-note minor villain that he was in the movies.

The only time I didn't care for Loki was in "Ragnarok". He seemed to have been reduced to a continuing punchline in that film. It's a pity that I didn't care for his DisneyPlus series. A real disappointment to me.

I agree about Loki in Ragnarok, and at the same time I also felt like that about Thor in that movie. Ragnarok is quite low on my list of Marvel rewatch movies.

As for Boba Fett, I liked what his series tried to do with his character in the Book of Boba Fett and The Mandalorian, although I didn't really care for the execution of the BoBF story.

 

[Anwar]

When Netflix first started streaming, I honestly believed that in a few years we'd have access (at reasonable cost) to almost the entire catalogue of film history. That today we'd be watching any movie from the 30s to the 90s we wanted through the aid of a subscription service. We are far short of that. Even non-Hollywood and Independent films can be difficult to find. As a fan of directors like Peter Greenaway, Wim Wenders, and Jim Jarmusch among a half dozen others it is difficult, if not impossible, to find their movies streaming. Some of the films I had to borrow from my library because I couldn't find them streaming were Patton, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Hustler, and the French Connection--all pretty big movies but difficult to find without a Blockbuster down on the corner.

NOTE: Sorry for rambling on this topic. That is all I have to say, but if anyone is interested in starting a thread about how to find obscure movies (which service they're on, best DVD/Blu Ray, etc), message me and I will open one.

The French Connection is on Disney Plus, IIRC.

 

[wayoung]

The French Connection is on Disney Plus, IIRC.

Depending on what country you are in, it's edited though. Kicked off a big shitstorm in June as even digitally owned copies were updated.

 

[Anwar]

Depending on what country you are in, it's edited though. Kicked off a big shitstorm in June as even digitally owned copies were updated.

I'm in Canada, they have it here but we don't get some stuff the Americans get.

 

[Rich Watson]

Have to admit, even without all the strike related problems I've never felt so down about the future of the MCU. 'The Marvels' looks like it's going to be fun but after that there's nothing on the movie side I'm super-excited about. (Except Deadpool but that's kind of it's own separate thing.)

The TV side seems no better. I'd imagine they've having fun in the editing room trying to somehow minimise Jonathan Majors scenes in 'Loki'. 'Echo' was long rumoured to be a disaster, and the fact that they're dumping it all on the same day does nothing to assuage that. 'What If' Season 2 seems to have vanished into the Void.

After that I think 'Coven of Chaos' is the only thing finished; and I worry it'll fall into the spin-off trap of turning someone who works well as a supporting character into the star of their own show where they have to be changed to work as the main character.

 

[The Knappos]

I've mixed feelings for the D+ shows. I felt Secret Invasion was pretty lethargic. Though I did watch weekly. I may, if the weather is rubbish, watch it in a 5 hour binge to see how it feels then.

That said, I am looking forward to DareDevil: Born Again.

On the movie side, I'm still looking forward to those. I've seen Thunderbolts get less enthusiasm, but I like the performances from most of the cast in all of their other appearances and I've faith that it'll have a good band-of-misfits feel. Plus, I am sure that Ford is there because they're going there with Ross. And that, I am intrigued for - even if the comic story introducing that was cack.

But familiarity does breed contempt and complacency and MCU is no longer the 'hopping-up-and-down' with excitement phenomenon. Folks in my office talking about MCU yesterday were saying "I'm done with Marvel". And I don't blame them.

I'm a paid up Merry Marvelite. Have been since Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends on 1980s kids TV. I'm a lifer. So, my excitement is perpetual, even if it ebbs and flows between muted and mania.

 

[Tuskin38]

Disney has this perennial issue across all of its franchises now that they just don't want to commit to a villain protagonist or even an antihero. They feel like the MC of every story has to be presented sympathetically. Witness how they neutered Boba Fett, and made him boring. Or couldn't make Cruella actually evil. Or how more recent Disney/Pixar films (Encanto, Raya and the Last Dragon, Seeing Red, Strange World, etc) lacked any real villain at all.

I firmly believe if the Agatha Harkness show ever actually sees the light of day, she'll be morphed into a good character as well.

Disney is pretty hands off with Marvel and LucasFilm from what has been said. I doubt that had anything to do with Disney owning them, and just what the show creator wanted.