Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

That's an interesting opening statement. Any follow up?

 

Moon Knight was surprisingly good and Ms. Marvel was just refreshingly entertaining and fun in almost every respect. I'd hardly call the current phase of the MCU a creative failure.

 

I don't think the current phase is a creative failure at all. I enjoy the attempt to expand the style and genres, diversify the characters to be more inclusive, and to try new things. Every show so far has had a distinct flavour, and the new actors have been enjoyable.
It is more "low key" than movies, but the Disney Plus shows have generally been much better done in terms of character and originality than the movies this phase--but I think there are a lot of movies coming up that will be really good.

 

Well, the past few years have produced more misses (some major) than hits with Marvel's assembly-line approach.

Only The Falcon and the Winter Soldier felt like a natural progression from its end of the MCU (the Cap side/chapter, of course), with its mature plots all coming off like the continuing story it was meant to be, and for that reason just a title announcement for Cap4 hints that the most compelling side/chapter of the MCU has not come to a conclusion.

 

I think they've managed to break out the the MCU plot rut they were in. Experimenting with style, tone and format more.

 

And then there's What If...?, the kind of alternate timeline/multiverse series a lot of Trek fans wish that franchise would have.

 

When it comes to Phase 4, I think its had a lot of good with a bit of bad. I loved Dr. Strange 2, SM: No Way Home and Loki. I really enjoyed Shang Chi, Hawkeye, the second half of Wandavision (I hated the pure old Sitcom episodes), and Moon Knight. But I disliked Falcon & Winter Soldier (I like the two leads but disliked the story and weird terrorist villains), What If, Black Widow, and Love & Thunder, and I loathed Eternals. I haven't (and won't) be watching Ms. Marvel or "She-Hulk".

I do think that this phase has been the biggest roller coaster, quality wise. Its had huge highs (MOM and No Way Home) but also had the single worst MCU movie with Eternals, and some mediocrity. Overall I'd say that the MCU is still going strong, and I'm really excited to see the upcoming projects. This Phase having a bit of a slump doesn't really effect my enjoyment of the MCU, and I don't think it makes Phase 4 a bad phase at all.

 

What has struck me about this phase is there no impetus for me to watch the next one. I've enjoyed what I watched, but nothing drives me forward. If I watch it it's because of friends or family not any desire to see what happens next. For me, that's the mediocre part. Which, I guess is better for me since I largely prefer standalone right now. But, taken as a whole it feels much different to the earlier phases.

Whether that's good or bad will depend.

 

The MCU really didn't start a "connected" storyline until Age of Ultron--and that was something that really dragged down the movie. I completely agree that stories that stand alone work best and one of the downsides since Infinity War is the expectation that everything has to be intricately connected rather than just having some characters crossover into other movies/shows.

 

I think what some people don't get about a large shared universe like the MCU is that you don't have to follow every last bit of it if you don't want to. It's not just one series, it's multiple series and works that share a continuity. It's the same as the comics -- there are so many different series that few people read every single one. They just focus on the ones they like.

So there's nothing wrong with the MCU if you don't feel compelled to follow every bit of it equally. That's how it's supposed to work. You can watch as many or as few as you want, the same as you can follow as many or as few comic series as you want.

 

Eh, I mean, Avengers felt like a driving force in terms of watching Thor and Captain America and looking forward to some connection. I prefer the standalones to be sure but the feeling of watching the end of Thor or Captain America or even the Avengers and the hint at a figure who finds death something to smile about was more intriguing.

 

She-Hulk writer Jessica Gao had a pitch for Black Widow rejected - it would basically have been Grosse Point Blank Widow. Sounds like fun to me. https://thedirect.com/article/black-widow-movie-plot-marvel-studios-high-school

 

But that was incidental, just a little bonus hint. I think in retrospect we think of those little hints as a bigger piece of the puzzle than they felt at the time, because we know what they led to. At this point, we are seeing hints and setups for future films, but we don't yet know how they come together.

And even so, it's a secondary consideration. The important thing should be whether we enjoy the individual installments. Linking things together doesn't make them good if they're not good in themselves. And while some Phase IV productions have been weaker than others, I haven't seen a single one that I considered bad or not enjoyable.

If anything, some of the weakest aspects of Phase IV have been the parts that were too focused on setting other things up rather than just telling strong self-contained stories. WandaVision was really impressive for most of it, but the ending was a bit of a letdown because it made the whole show feel like it was just about moving pieces into position for later things. Falcon/Winter Soldier was good, but then they tacked on this Countess character who was clearly just being set up for later and felt like an annoying distraction from the story. I feel the later shows have been stronger because they've been more self-contained, freer to be their own things rather than just being transitional pieces between movies. Sure, the introductions of characters like Kate Bishop and Kamala Khan have been setups for their future MCU appearances, but since they were new characters getting origin stories, that made their series feel complete and self-contained.

 

You never know.

I read the article. Why would someone like Natasha Romanoff return to her American high school for a class reunion? That seemed to go against her personality.

 

Perhaps for you. For me, and some of my friends, there was excitement to seeing the film and pieces of what's to come. Less chatter about the film and more around the next step.

Now, I do agree that the films themselves should be the draw. But, it wasn't for me at first. With Phase 4 I have scaled back my watching to get to that individual place of enjoyment rather than how I got in to it in the first place.

 

I submit that you would not have been excited by the teaser for the next film if you had not enjoyed the film you'd just watched. Just look at all the attempts to create "cinematic universes" that flopped (e.g. Tom Cruise's The Mummy and Amazing Spider-Man 2) because they were so preoccupied with setting up future films that they forgot to make the current film worthwhile. If you didn't like the first serving, you're not going to be excited when they offer you seconds.

 

Yes and no. Did I enjoy the initial films? Yes, to watch once. Was I more engaged with what was coming next? Yes.

Again, I owe that to my friend group at the time and what drove our conversations. Once Avengers happened I was pretty much satisfied and less engaged.

 

Its largely a blur, hitting certain character beats over and over again with the same Easter Egg / namedropping to get to the next MCU-Mania event with 500, largely underdeveloped characters just to tickle a certain fan type who want to see more hollow spectacle.

 

I don't see a "no" part there, because it doesn't contradict what I said. Again: If you had not enjoyed the initial films, would you still have been excited to see more from the same creators?

 

Yes, probably. One bad experience didn't put me off a creative team then. And even if I didn't enjoy it the intrigue would draw me back. At the time, anyway. Now, films get one shot.