Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.
That dude created soooo many alternate universes.
Dr Strange gonna be pissed!
Angry Bruce: Thats not how time travel works!
There's also the four Offenders animated series coming to Hulu, and the animated Avengers, Spider-Man, and Guardians of the Galaxy series on Disney+. Or is the animated stuff going to still have someone else in charge?
Sounds like Feige is in charge of those kid-friendly animated shows now too.
Murphy's law podcast claims that Ant Man 3 is a go! If true, I've never been happier to be wrong.
What should the third movie be called? Giant-Man and the Wasp? Ant-Men and the Wasps?
The Wasp and Her Amazing Friends.
As Told by Luis.
Luis should narrate the entire history of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in the context of telling someone how his van got destroyed.
Here's hoping they're right! I really want to learn more about the quantum realm and how Janet survived down there for so long.
I really, really, truly hope we'll someday get a special feature where we get that particular abridged edit.
One thing that popped into my mind yesterday (and it should be only discussed within the MCU rules):
Could Tony have been worthy of Mjolnir in the end?
To wield Mjolnir you have to be worthy but what does that actually mean? Do you have to be an exceptional fighter, physically very strong, pure of heart, a good leader, intelligent etc?
Atfer Endgame (and confirmation by Kevin Feige in a post Endgame interview) we know hat Steve Rogers could have lifted Mjolnir if he wanted to in Age of Ultron but chose not to in order not to embarass Thor in front of everyone and he suspected as much given how his smile faded instantly when Mjolnir moved ever so slightly when Steve "attempted" to lift it.
Now Tony as he was in Iron Man 1 up until before the Battle of New York could not be a candidate. Even though he had a complete change of heart in Iron Man and went from careless arms manufacturer to hero he still had too much arrogance in him to be worthy of the hammer (which begs to question why Thor was able to wield it until he received his dose of humility in Thor 1 but it would ruin my argument so we'll conveniently ignore it ).
Movie by movie Tony changes.. he starts to really care for others, putting his own life on the line if he had to (but usually only i na calculated manner as he already knows the best way out) but as proven in Ultron he is still not worthy and i wondered why (basically why none of the Avengers were able to).
So during Infinity War and especially after the time jump in Endgame we see a complete, "final" Tony.. reluctant at first to re-enter the Superhero game but he can't help himself when posed with a problem... he has this OCD to solve problems whenever he sees one so he is pulled in again and in a final act sacrifices himself and his awesome life with wife and adorable daughter to basically save the universe.
So this begs the question to me - in that final moment was he worthy of Mjolnir? He may not have the hand to hand prowess of Thor or Captain America but he used his strength, his mind and genius engineering skills, to catch up to their level and be able to go toe to toe with them while in the suit but a true hero should not be measured how hard one is able to punch but more immaterial things like courage (going up against a guy who effortlessly beat the Hulk), selflessness (pushing a nuclear missile out of harms way fully expecting to die when it goes off) and sacrifice (putting his life on the line many times and making the ultimate sacrifice in the end).
The criteria for what constitutes "worthy" in the eyes of Odin's enchantment is a little hard to pin down. So far we only know of four individuals besides Odin himself capable of lifting Mjolnir after said enchantment was put on it: Thor, Vision & Steve.
The latter two seems to indicate a purity of heart, or at least purity of intent, but the former seems a little inconsistent because Thor is often selfish and self absorbed and yet can still wield the hammer. We know academically that Jane Foster is or will be worthy, though it's hard to say why since thus far they've not really delved into her character very much.
A willingness to self sacrifice may well be what can tip one from unworthy to worthy, since that's basically what changed in Thor when he faced the Destroyer without his powers. Of course by that logic not only would Tony be worthy, but so would Nat, Clint (?), Skurge, Coulson, Ho Yinsen, Frigga, Yondu, and even Scott Lang. Clint is a big question mark though since his sacrifice play seemed to have been motivated by guilt and self hatred for what's he'd become. Not exactly pure of heart.
If I had to guess who else might be worthy; I'd go with Peter Parker, Jessica Jones, Professor Hulk, Daisy, that old German guy that stood up to Loki, and probably Peggy too.
Because Odin didn't put the "if he be worthy" enchantment on it until then. We actually saw him do that, so it's no mystery. Before then, it was just a hammer. Then Odin put a kiddie lock on it so not just anyone could use it.
Great point.. i actually didn't consider or note this as i assumed it was always like this (and i believe it was in the comics since the beginning). So that clears up the one inconsistency in my argument.
Thor was always worthy, but acted out due to his never wanting the responsibility of the throne. Odin--and the manner the hammer was enchanted--only senses truth about a being, but Thor (in the first film) had gone of the rails to the degree where he essentially had to grow up in order to reclaim that which was his.
In Steve's case, he too was always a genuinely pure soul (not Christ-like, but the best an ordinary human could be), as accurately observed by Erskine. For the fact Steve's true nature made him the only man worthy of the Super Soldier serum and all that it supports/enhances in a subject should have tipped off anyone that he naturally met the requirements set by Odin's enchantment of the hammer. Contrary to some MCU fans (and before the Russos made their official statement this year), I thought he could lift the hammer during the party scene in Age of Ultron, but for the very reason he was always worthy, he did not want to "show up" his friend. Anyone else in that room (who tried) would have gleefully and pridefully lifted it--just one of the reasons why they would never be worthy.
His lifting it had absolutely nothing to do with his having to "come clean" to Stark about Bucky killing his parents before he could become worthy. Those were the theories who were Stark-defensive, as if Steve had committed some immoral act, when in truth, he was trying to protect both Bucky and Stark.
Regarding the Vision, he's artificial, but was designed to reach a level of absolute purity of truth (in a real state of being good, not learned or adopted) far beyond the capabilities (or inherent nature) of his makers, hence his being worthy as defined in the films.
The enchantment wasn't put on the hammer until he was banished, we literally see Odin put the enchantment on it right after declaring Thor "unworthy", Whether or not he was worthy before this happened is an open question since there was no enchantment set to measure said worthiness. Though it's safe to say had the enchantment been on it prior to that, he'd have not gotten to Jotenheim in the first place.
Everyone but Nat, which is partly why I suspect she probably could have if she tried. Her refusal to even attempt it says to me she was afraid to know the answer.
I think Odin knew Thor was of a higher character, but ran away from it; enchanting the hammer was the test of that belief, and Thor finally embraced responsibility, but the key was that only a select few--apparently in all reality--have reached that level of pure worthiness..
That's why I mentioned those who tried. I believe Nat believed she was "damaged goods" (note how she talks about herself with Steve during the events of The Winter Soldier), and already knew she could not lift the hammer. For her--on a strictly personal note--why add insult to injury when she already knew the answer?
I think you're labouring on the misapprehension that worthiness is somehow intrinsic to a person and not the result of conscious choices. Indeed if that were the case then the enchantment would have been meaningless and Thor would have always have been able to lift the hammer.
Thor was not of a higher character, which is precisely why Odin cast him out. The hope being to *teach* Thor how to be worthy of his powers and privilege, not just hope he stops acting like a greedy, vain and cruel idiot. It wasn't an act of faith on Odin's part, it was a lesson in humility.
I agree. But I also think she was wrong about herself in this regard. Indeed, this belief only serves to emphasise her humility and her ultimate sacrifice confirmed her selflessness.
That last part didn't come out of nowhere. It's subtle, but all through Winter Soldier we see her measuring herself against Steve and is visibly annoyed with herself in the opening sequence when she disappoints him. Indeed selflessness is one of her most recurring traits; she sacrifices her potential relationship with Bruce for the good of the mission, when Fury and later Barton are injured she's foremost concerned with their well being, and she's ready to stay on Novi Grad while it blows up rather than leave any civilians behind.
For all her concerns about re-balancing her ledger, striving to make up for what she did in her youth, she never even noticed that she succeeded. Never realised that she'd already become the ideal she strived for but never felt she'd every measure up to. To me that's the real tragedy of her character and the true measure of her worth.
So yeah, I think had she tried to lift the hammer at that party, she would have surprised herself.
Use it to poke fun at the elongated Birds of Prey title.
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