Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
I'd like to hear that reason.
Marvel All New, All Different - Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
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Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
They didn't call it secondary mutation at that point. But her sister Zala Dane was frakking with the north pole, which also down powered Magneto, and when he started kissing Rogue for fun. This all happened around Uncanny 275. I had the cover on my wall for years until I gave it to a cute fangirl.
Near her beginning, in the 1970s, she was Magnetos daughter, but it turned out to be a robot who was tricking her, so they moved her to one side of the Magnus family.
I blinked.
She's his daughter again.
They didn't call it secondary mutation at that point. But her sister Zala Dane was frakking with the north pole, which also down powered Magneto, and when he started kissing Rogue for fun. This all happened around Uncanny 275. I had the cover on my wall for years until I gave it to a cute fangirl.
Near her beginning, in the 1970s, she was Magnetos daughter, but it turned out to be a robot who was tricking her, so they moved her to one side of the Magnus family.
I blinked.
She's his daughter again.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
So, ranking the recent Marvel crossovers from best to worst...
The Good:
Civil War - AVSX - Secret Invasion - Siege
The So-So:
Infinity - Axis - World War Hulk
The Disappointing:
Fear Itself - Original Sin - Age of Ultron
So, ranking the recent Marvel crossovers from best to worst...
The Good:
Civil War - AVSX - Secret Invasion - Siege
The So-So:
Infinity - Axis - World War Hulk
The Disappointing:
Fear Itself - Original Sin - Age of Ultron
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
2006 is recent?
2006 is recent?
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Well, I'd put WWH in the Good section and Infinity very firmly in a new section (Unreadable), but besides that I generally agree with that.
Well, I'd put WWH in the Good section and Infinity very firmly in a new section (Unreadable), but besides that I generally agree with that.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Infinity was a weird one. It was two entirely separate stories. One, with the Builders, was really cool and epic. But it had a complete deus ex machina ending. The other, with Thanos, was pretty much a waste of time. But as the big middle chapter of Hickman's Avengers multi-verse story, it's more than the sum of its parts. But at least it DID something and had consequences. What did Axis or Fear Itself or O Sin or Age of Ultron change?
Infinity was a weird one. It was two entirely separate stories. One, with the Builders, was really cool and epic. But it had a complete deus ex machina ending. The other, with Thanos, was pretty much a waste of time. But as the big middle chapter of Hickman's Avengers multi-verse story, it's more than the sum of its parts. But at least it DID something and had consequences. What did Axis or Fear Itself or O Sin or Age of Ultron change?
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Well, I thought it was just way too dense for its own good, and it officially made me hate Hickman as an Avengers writer. He did well with the FF, but his Avengers work is like the really bad Grant Morrison stuff (convoluted and written like the writer hates a coherent story). Its super complicated, requires you to read every book he writes about 5 times to figure out what's going on, and then seems like its written by someone who has disdain for a coherent narrative. I still have no idea who the builders were, where they came from, how they were defeated or where they went, and I read all of Infinity and the avengers issues connected to it.
At least I've had Mighty Avengers to tide me over, because between Rick Remender on Uncanny Avengers and Johnathon Hickman on just about 1000 other avengers books there hasn't been a good Avengers book in about two years besides Mighty, and even that's been screwed up by AXIS (although hopefully that will be done in an issue or two).
Well, I thought it was just way too dense for its own good, and it officially made me hate Hickman as an Avengers writer. He did well with the FF, but his Avengers work is like the really bad Grant Morrison stuff (convoluted and written like the writer hates a coherent story). Its super complicated, requires you to read every book he writes about 5 times to figure out what's going on, and then seems like its written by someone who has disdain for a coherent narrative. I still have no idea who the builders were, where they came from, how they were defeated or where they went, and I read all of Infinity and the avengers issues connected to it.
At least I've had Mighty Avengers to tide me over, because between Rick Remender on Uncanny Avengers and Johnathon Hickman on just about 1000 other avengers books there hasn't been a good Avengers book in about two years besides Mighty, and even that's been screwed up by AXIS (although hopefully that will be done in an issue or two).
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Age of Ultron gave us Angela (she just had a spiffy #1 as well) and more tearing of the timeline that's leading to Secret Wars. And it threw Galactus into the Ultimate universe and destroyed every title except for the (still) fantastic Spider-Man. That's pretty huge.
I'm also not sure why you'd ask what consequences Axis has. One, it literally ended last week. And two, Superior Iron Man isn't a low key book, driven from those story elements.
I never read Fear Itself, so I can't comment on that, but Original Sin had a lot of character changing moments (Daredevil, Hulk/Iron Man, Nick Fury hello!!) that can EASILY be tapped in the future. Character moments are just as powerful a change than our-universe-will-never-be-the-same!!! changes.
And even beyond all of this, who cares? If one likes a story, consequences or not, then that's what makes it a good story. Ramifications don't make something powerful or engaging. I'm not saying that these stories are, but it's a poor way to judge a book.
Even poorer to ignore the consequences and say there are none, though.
Age of Ultron gave us Angela (she just had a spiffy #1 as well) and more tearing of the timeline that's leading to Secret Wars. And it threw Galactus into the Ultimate universe and destroyed every title except for the (still) fantastic Spider-Man. That's pretty huge.
I'm also not sure why you'd ask what consequences Axis has. One, it literally ended last week. And two, Superior Iron Man isn't a low key book, driven from those story elements.
I never read Fear Itself, so I can't comment on that, but Original Sin had a lot of character changing moments (Daredevil, Hulk/Iron Man, Nick Fury hello!!) that can EASILY be tapped in the future. Character moments are just as powerful a change than our-universe-will-never-be-the-same!!! changes.
And even beyond all of this, who cares? If one likes a story, consequences or not, then that's what makes it a good story. Ramifications don't make something powerful or engaging. I'm not saying that these stories are, but it's a poor way to judge a book.
Even poorer to ignore the consequences and say there are none, though.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Civil War is the yardstick for me. That fundamentally changed the entire line of books. As did Secret Invasion and Siege. Those were all massive game changers. And they hype these things as 'nothing will be the same again' events. To my personal definition, that means a fundamental change in the state of the world that impacts almost every book, not just a few characters switching seats for a year or two.
Original Sin to my mind only really affected Nick Fury, but he had already been sidelined for years before this, and Bucky, who I personally don't care about as he's been off the map of the mainline continuity for years as well.
I don't even know what OS had to do with Daredevil? And did the Hulk/Iron Man revelation have any larger ramifications outside of that mini?
Age of Ultron... I don't read the Ultimates line (not many do) so sticking Galactus in there doesn't really affect the primary continuity. But this is like House of M; it's only the very ending of the book that did anything. Everything before that was a big what if? story that didn't count. Ultron didn't actually destroy the world. There were no consequences to that apocalyptic storyline.
Don't get me wrong I love crossovers. I'm just ranking them. Age of Ultron is the only one I really didn't like because it was an alternate universe story that took forever to go anywhere.
Civil War is the yardstick for me. That fundamentally changed the entire line of books. As did Secret Invasion and Siege. Those were all massive game changers. And they hype these things as 'nothing will be the same again' events. To my personal definition, that means a fundamental change in the state of the world that impacts almost every book, not just a few characters switching seats for a year or two.
Original Sin to my mind only really affected Nick Fury, but he had already been sidelined for years before this, and Bucky, who I personally don't care about as he's been off the map of the mainline continuity for years as well.
I don't even know what OS had to do with Daredevil? And did the Hulk/Iron Man revelation have any larger ramifications outside of that mini?
Age of Ultron... I don't read the Ultimates line (not many do) so sticking Galactus in there doesn't really affect the primary continuity. But this is like House of M; it's only the very ending of the book that did anything. Everything before that was a big what if? story that didn't count. Ultron didn't actually destroy the world. There were no consequences to that apocalyptic storyline.
Don't get me wrong I love crossovers. I'm just ranking them. Age of Ultron is the only one I really didn't like because it was an alternate universe story that took forever to go anywhere.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Sooo... "I don't read the books the crossover affected, so it doesn't count" is what you're basically saying.
I read the Ultimate books and they're just as "real" to me as the 616, it doesn't matter if 3 people read them or 3,000. I like Miles more than Peter Parker. Him being in the X-Men books presently (primary continuity) and being shown in the Secret Wars previews shows Marvel wants to show that the Ultimate Universe may have significance with the "primary" continuity as well.
Age of Ultron had more effect than all of the other ones you mentioned combined, Civil War (which all effects have been pretty much reversed) as well.
Sooo... "I don't read the books the crossover affected, so it doesn't count" is what you're basically saying.
I read the Ultimate books and they're just as "real" to me as the 616, it doesn't matter if 3 people read them or 3,000. I like Miles more than Peter Parker. Him being in the X-Men books presently (primary continuity) and being shown in the Secret Wars previews shows Marvel wants to show that the Ultimate Universe may have significance with the "primary" continuity as well.
Age of Ultron had more effect than all of the other ones you mentioned combined, Civil War (which all effects have been pretty much reversed) as well.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Plus, and I can't believe I forgot this, Age of Ultron gave us the fantastic Age of Ultron #10A by Waid. One of the best recent Hank Pym stories (which isn't saying a lot, but I loved it).
As I said before, a story doesn't have to have repercussions to be a fantastic story. In fact, I don't recall Original Sin being sold as a game changer, more of a "whodunnit" in the Marvel unvierse with a bunch of B and C listers teaming up.
I think we, the fans, sometimes put a lot of unnecessary expectations on some of these stories that were never intended to be there.
Like Axis, which was never intended to be a huge crossover, they just took the opportunity to make it bigger when Remender showed them his plans and how large the story naturally was. But nobody ever said "this one will break the universe!".
Secret Wars PROBABLY will though.
Plus, and I can't believe I forgot this, Age of Ultron gave us the fantastic Age of Ultron #10A by Waid. One of the best recent Hank Pym stories (which isn't saying a lot, but I loved it).
As I said before, a story doesn't have to have repercussions to be a fantastic story. In fact, I don't recall Original Sin being sold as a game changer, more of a "whodunnit" in the Marvel unvierse with a bunch of B and C listers teaming up.
I think we, the fans, sometimes put a lot of unnecessary expectations on some of these stories that were never intended to be there.
Like Axis, which was never intended to be a huge crossover, they just took the opportunity to make it bigger when Remender showed them his plans and how large the story naturally was. But nobody ever said "this one will break the universe!".
Secret Wars PROBABLY will though.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Again, I don't count "Axis" as an event. It's just that editorial slapped "Avengers Vs X-Men" on it to help it sell better. It's really the finale of Remender's first "Uncanny Avengers" volume and the setting up of his second volulme
Marvel Editorial also doesn't count "Siege" as an event story either. They've classified it as an "Avengers" eccentric arc.
Again, I don't count "Axis" as an event. It's just that editorial slapped "Avengers Vs X-Men" on it to help it sell better. It's really the finale of Remender's first "Uncanny Avengers" volume and the setting up of his second volulme
Marvel Editorial also doesn't count "Siege" as an event story either. They've classified it as an "Avengers" eccentric arc.
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Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
I didn't mean to come off so negative about these things. I was just saying some are better than others at being major storylines.
Siege was a huge story. It was the finale of the Civil War storyline. It marked the end of the "government hunting superheroes" theme that had been running for many years and brought back a return to "the heroic age" where superheroes were free to run around willy nilly. And of course it marked the end of Norman Osborne's reign of terror and the destruction of Asgard and the death of Ares and the Sentry (who are STILL dead! as far as I know). It fundamentally changed the line up of all the Avengers teams and it made Iron Man into a hero again (mainly by erasing his memory of everything he'd done the past few years lol)...
Surely any story that has a primary mini-series and every other related book becomes a tie-in is an "event"? What's the difference?
I didn't mean to come off so negative about these things. I was just saying some are better than others at being major storylines.
Siege was a huge story. It was the finale of the Civil War storyline. It marked the end of the "government hunting superheroes" theme that had been running for many years and brought back a return to "the heroic age" where superheroes were free to run around willy nilly. And of course it marked the end of Norman Osborne's reign of terror and the destruction of Asgard and the death of Ares and the Sentry (who are STILL dead! as far as I know). It fundamentally changed the line up of all the Avengers teams and it made Iron Man into a hero again (mainly by erasing his memory of everything he'd done the past few years lol)...
Surely any story that has a primary mini-series and every other related book becomes a tie-in is an "event"? What's the difference?
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Well, when it comes to the Siege deaths...
Well, when it comes to the Siege deaths...
Four dead people were brought back as Apocalypse style Horsemen in Uncanny Avengers. Grim Reaper, Daken, Banshee and Sentry were ressurected and still around when the UA storyline ended. Reaper and Daken escaped, Banshee was taken to the X-Men medical wing, and Sentry took the dead body of a celestial executioner to space, and then just kind of disappeared, but he's still out there. So, he's pretty much alive again, just in an unusual form.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
That maybe the case with "Siege" but that still doesn't mean they see it as a wide line "event" book and yes I know it had tie-ins and the like as well...but this is from Brevoort himself (which understandably can be taken with a grain of salt but still).
Stuff like "Secret Wars" etc are gimmick centric sales events. Whatever the big two are doing in the spring/summer should be considered as "events". Again this is just my own personal definition regarding these things. Books like "Secret Invasion", "Civil War", "Spider-Verse", etc would be what I would personally consider to be event books.
That maybe the case with "Siege" but that still doesn't mean they see it as a wide line "event" book and yes I know it had tie-ins and the like as well...but this is from Brevoort himself (which understandably can be taken with a grain of salt but still).
Stuff like "Secret Wars" etc are gimmick centric sales events. Whatever the big two are doing in the spring/summer should be considered as "events". Again this is just my own personal definition regarding these things. Books like "Secret Invasion", "Civil War", "Spider-Verse", etc would be what I would personally consider to be event books.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
I wouldn't consider Spider-Verse to be an event book since it only affects the Spider-line. My definition of an event book (which is only worth my own opinion which is not much
) is something that affects the entire publishing line.
I wouldn't consider Spider-Verse to be an event book since it only affects the Spider-line. My definition of an event book (which is only worth my own opinion which is not much
) is something that affects the entire publishing line.
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Except that "Spider-Verse" is clearly tied into timeline/dimensions breaking down plot line (since there has been references to that) going on in all books, so I disagree there. It's like a prelude to "Secret Wars".
Except that "Spider-Verse" is clearly tied into timeline/dimensions breaking down plot line (since there has been references to that) going on in all books, so I disagree there. It's like a prelude to "Secret Wars".
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
But the events of Spider-Verse do not affect the Avengers or anyone else. But now we're just talking semantics
I basically view Avengers as the flagship of the Marvel U. An "event" must star the Avengers and create lasting changes in their book. Everything else spirals out from there.
And, love him or hate him, this entirely the legacy of Brian Michael Bendis. The Avengers were a joke before 2004. And ever since he took over the title they have defined the Marvel U. Well done, Master Bendis! (not that I don't have some big problems with his style)
Does anyone know when/how/why Red Hulk left the Avengers?
But the events of Spider-Verse do not affect the Avengers or anyone else. But now we're just talking semantics
I basically view Avengers as the flagship of the Marvel U. An "event" must star the Avengers and create lasting changes in their book. Everything else spirals out from there.
And, love him or hate him, this entirely the legacy of Brian Michael Bendis. The Avengers were a joke before 2004. And ever since he took over the title they have defined the Marvel U. Well done, Master Bendis! (not that I don't have some big problems with his style)
Does anyone know when/how/why Red Hulk left the Avengers?
Re: Marvel Now/ReEvolution Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)
Fair enough and indeed we are arguing about semantics lol...I guess we both have our own opinions and definitions of what constitutes an "event" book. I would consider "Time Runs Out" in April/May as an event book since it's Hickman's grand finale and leads directly into "Secret Wars". "The Death of Wolverine" would be a "Mini-event book" since Logan's not going to be around until at least May 2016-ish.
Fair enough and indeed we are arguing about semantics lol...I guess we both have our own opinions and definitions of what constitutes an "event" book. I would consider "Time Runs Out" in April/May as an event book since it's Hickman's grand finale and leads directly into "Secret Wars". "The Death of Wolverine" would be a "Mini-event book" since Logan's not going to be around until at least May 2016-ish.
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