Mark Hamill on the Prequel Trilogy

[fireproof78]

Yeah, and I think making him a nicer guy would have also made his fall to the dark side even more tragic. I think having him fall so quickly in RoTS was a mistake, I really think it should have been a much slower descent over the course of at least AoTC and RoTS. I know we got a bit of that with the Sand People, but there should have been more of that over the whole movie.

I tend to agree. I think that the Sand People scene is among the best in the Star Wars saga, and really emphasizes the tension in Anakin, and what happens when he deals with loss. However, I don't feel that there was enough of the fall portrayed to really grasp it without some supplemental material for ROTS.

His story really is tragic. He's sort of torn between two father figures after losing Qui-Gonn and his mum. Qui-Gon was a good father figure with good intentions for Anakin. He died. Anakin then spends the next ten years being raised by Obi-Wan and the Jedi on the one hand, who have his best interest, but tell him everything he doesn't want to hear. On the other hand he's raised by Palpatine, who tells Anakin everything he wants to hear. He loses his mom and gains a beautiful wife. She's his prized possession and he loves her. by the time of Episode III, Anakin has a really warped view of himself, the Jedi, etc. Palpatine's been working on him for 13 years. You know the rest.

And it would have been great that instead of ten years of Palpatine slowly poisoning his mind, we actually see some of that unfold. And, I already hear the objections "But, we know it happens because they talk about it and their relationship so you can be certain of their relationship." Yes, but it doesn't give me insight in to the tension of Anakin, or his relationship with Obi-Wan beyond the superficial. I know it works for some, maybe even many, but it falls flat for me.

And none of this falls on Jake Lloyd. He did fine for the material he had and I don't hold it against him or have any problem with his performance in TPM. I simply don't think Anakin needed to be that young.

 

[Prax]

Lucas originally had him as a 14 year old, but changed it to 9 as he didn't see a 14 year old having the same separation anxiety over leaving his Mother. And having Obi-Wan being 15 years older than Anakin fits better with the OT(imo)

Of course, originally Obi-Wan was going to be the mentor in TPM and Qui-Gon the learner...

 

[Kor]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...d-Star-Wars-fame-turned-life-living-hell.html

A great deal of Jake Lloyd's SW-related stress was due to his own schoolmates bullying/harassing him. Kids can be cruel.

Kor

 

[JD]

I tend to agree. I think that the Sand People scene is among the best in the Star Wars saga, and really emphasizes the tension in Anakin, and what happens when he deals with loss. However, I don't feel that there was enough of the fall portrayed to really grasp it without some supplemental material for ROTS.


And it would have been great that instead of ten years of Palpatine slowly poisoning his mind, we actually see some of that unfold. And, I already hear the objections "But, we know it happens because they talk about it and their relationship so you can be certain of their relationship." Yes, but it doesn't give me insight in to the tension of Anakin, or his relationship with Obi-Wan beyond the superficial. I know it works for some, maybe even many, but it falls flat for me.

I really wish we had seen more of the Anakin/Palpatine relationship in the movies and TCW. Palpatine was supposed to be a big mentor figure to him, I guess he could be seen as the devil on one shoulder to Obi-Wan's angel on the other, but we never really got much of that in the screen material.

 

[mos6507]

The overall premise behind the prequels was fine. That's why there was so much anticipation over them to begin with. It's jut the execution that sucked. None of that was Jake's fault.

 

[LJones41]

Yeah, and I think making him a nicer guy would have also made his fall to the dark side even more tragic. I think having him fall so quickly in RoTS was a mistake, I really think it should have been a much slower descent over the course of at least AoTC and RoTS. I know we got a bit of that with the Sand People, but there should have been more of that over the whole movie.

And I don't agree with or understand this statement.

 

[JD]

Sorry this took me so long to respond. I just thought that his fairly quick turn in ROTS was a mistake, I would have rather seen him start his descent to the Dark Side in AotC, and have more manipulation on Palpatine's part from the start.

 

[Reverend]

Sorry this took me so long to respond. I just thought that his fairly quick turn in ROTS was a mistake, I would have rather seen him start his descent to the Dark Side in AotC, and have more manipulation on Palpatine's part from the start.

Well his descent *did* start in AotC with the death of Shmi and his slaughter of the Tusken tribe and Palpatine's infulence on him was well established.
As for his "turn" in RotS, it doesn't really start until *after* he kills the Seperatist leaders. Everything from with confrontation to Windu, his submission to Palpatine and the attack on the temple were things he was forcing himself to do as a means to an end. It's not until he lashes out at Padme that he truly turns, the dam holding back his rage & hatred bursts and he becomes a twisted creature of the dark side.
I know it's subjective, but I tend to interpret the single tear shot as on Mustafar as his abject despair and self hatred. Even then he knew what he had done was wrong but he could see no way out.

 

[fireproof78]

Well his descent *did* start in AotC with the death of Shmi and his slaughter of the Tusken tribe and Palpatine's infulence on him was well established.
As for his "turn" in RotS, it doesn't really start until *after* he kills the Seperatist leaders. Everything from with confrontation to Windu, his submission to Palpatine and the attack on the temple were things he was forcing himself to do as a means to an end. It's not until he lashes out at Padme that he truly turns, the dam holding back his rage & hatred bursts and he becomes a twisted creature of the dark side.
I know it's subjective, but I tend to interpret the single tear shot as on Mustafar as his abject despair and self hatred. Even then he knew what he had done was wrong but he could see no way out.

I think its more the matter of how he responds to Palpatine right after Windu is out of the picture. Anakin sounds more submissive than I would expect if he was still struggling with the Dark Side. I think the Mustufar scenes are well done, but it's the lead up to those scenes that feel more abrupt, at least to me.

I certainly see the self-loathing on Mustufar, and his back and forth with Obi-Wan has the air of tragedy to it, but it doesn't set well with the Jedi Temple scene preceding it.

 

[Reverend]

I think its more the matter of how he responds to Palpatine right after Windu is out of the picture. Anakin sounds more submissive than I would expect if he was still struggling with the Dark Side. I think the Mustufar scenes are well done, but it's the lead up to those scenes that feel more abrupt, at least to me.

It makes more sense if you keep in mind that in that scene, Anakin truly *hates* Palpatine. The dilemma is that he *needs* Palpatine to save Padme and he's already crossed the point of no return. His only path now is forwards.
If it seems he's distant and trance-like, that's because he is. This is not a person being consumed by evil, this is a person who's entire world is crumbling before his very eyes. It's emotional overload. Tantamount to a nervous breakdown or PTSD. He's been hollowed out and the only thing that he can hold onto to keep him from going over the edge is the idea of saving Padme and that means going along with whatever Palpatine says. He's basically an automaton at this stage.

I certainly see the self-loathing on Mustufar, and his back and forth with Obi-Wan has the air of tragedy to it, but it doesn't set well with the Jedi Temple scene preceding it.

But the temple scene didn't immediately precede it. He visits Padme in between and flat out lies to her face about what's going on. There's a point where she asks him what he's going to do and for a moment, he can't look at her and has to walk away before answering. He's ashamed of what he's done and what he's about to do and I think he's afraid Padme will see the guilt in his eyes.
I've found that if you look past the hammy dialogue and the lack of chemistry between them and just focus on what Hayden is doing in a given scene it speaks volumes about Anakin's though process and state of mind. He get's a bad rap, but when given the opportunity he's a surprising subtle actor.

 

[JD]

Well his descent *did* start in AotC with the death of Shmi and his slaughter of the Tusken tribe and Palpatine's infulence on him was well established.
As for his "turn" in RotS, it doesn't really start until *after* he kills the Seperatist leaders. Everything from with confrontation to Windu, his submission to Palpatine and the attack on the temple were things he was forcing himself to do as a means to an end. It's not until he lashes out at Padme that he truly turns, the dam holding back his rage & hatred bursts and he becomes a twisted creature of the dark side.
I know it's subjective, but I tend to interpret the single tear shot as on Mustafar as his abject despair and self hatred. Even then he knew what he had done was wrong but he could see no way out.

I guess I saw the stuff with the Tuskens and Shmi as showing that he could lose control, and to hint at what kind of potential he had to fall, but that he didn't actually start his fall under the fight with Windu.
EDIT: Or maybe I could see his fall starting with his conversation with Palpatine about Darth Plagueis.

 

[fireproof78]

It makes more sense if you keep in mind that in that scene, Anakin truly *hates* Palpatine. The dilemma is that he *needs* Palpatine to save Padme and he's already crossed the point of no return. His only path now is forwards.
If it seems he's distant and trance-like, that's because he is. This is not a person being consumed by evil, this is a person who's entire world is crumbling before his very eyes. It's emotional overload. Tantamount to a nervous breakdown or PTSD. He's been hollowed out and the only thing that he can hold onto to keep him from going over the edge is the idea of saving Padme and that means going along with whatever Palpatine says. He's basically an automaton at this stage.



But the temple scene didn't immediately precede it. He visits Padme in between and flat out lies to her face about what's going on. There's a point where she asks him what he's going to do and for a moment, he can't look at her and has to walk away before answering. He's ashamed of what he's done and what he's about to do and I think he's afraid Padme will see the guilt in his eyes.
I've found that if you look past the hammy dialogue and the lack of chemistry between them and just focus on what Hayden is doing in a given scene it speaks volumes about Anakin's though process and state of mind. He get's a bad rap, but when given the opportunity he's a surprising subtle actor.

I didn't say immediately precedes. I said that the Temple scene, were Anakin looks full on evil (slaughtering children, killing Cin Draling, clones marching in, etc).

I agree that Hayden does ok with the material, but the sequence of events is not as smooth as it could be. Close, but not quite, in other words.

Also, as a note, PTSD would not be an appropriate state of mind. Psychotic break would be a more appropriate term for Anakin, though even that isn't quite accurate.

 

[Reverend]

I guess I saw the stuff with the Tuskens and Shmi as showing that he could lose control, and to hint at what kind of potential he had to fall, but that he didn't actually start his fall under the fight with Windu.

Not sure I'd class wholesale murder (children and all) as a "hint" so much as a 60 foot high flashing neon sign.
Even this isn't his start down the dark path (that probably began the moment he left home to begin with), it's just the first major milestone along the way. It's not a binary state of being that one switches from one to the other so much as a gradient. Evil is insidious by nature. You don't realise how far you've come until you look back and can't see the shore anymore.
Turning on Windu was just the point of no return. After that, there is no shore for him.

EDIT: Or maybe I could see his fall starting with his conversation with Palpatine about Darth Plagueis.

That's not a fall, it's a temptation scene. For it to be a fall, Anakin would have to have some agency or choice in the matter.
Somehow Palpatine knows exactly what's going on with Padme and is planting the seed in Anakin's mind. It's entirely possible the story about Darth Plagueis influencing the midichlorians is a total load of bantha poodoo. We only have his word for it.
Anyway, for his part Anakin is a passive participant here, he makes no decisions or takes any actions beyond asking a question.

I didn't say immediately precedes. I said that the Temple scene, were Anakin looks full on evil (slaughtering children, killing Cin Draling, clones marching in, etc).

I'd characterise it as dispassionate and focused. Intimidating? Sure. Ruthless and brutal? No question. But not outwardly evil in the sense that he's deriving any satisfaction from it. It's a task. Nothing more. It's different with the Separatist Council. That he clearly relished, at least on some level.
He's not literally in the suit yet, but figuratively speaking he's already wearing the mask and the tear scene is the last vestige of Anakin's true face being consumed by Vader's.

The scene in between with Padme is significant as it contextualises the two incidents. We see him constructing the lie he begins to tell himself until he becomes the lie and can't tell the difference anymore.

Also, as a note, PTSD would not be an appropriate state of mind. Psychotic break would be a more appropriate term for Anakin, though even that isn't quite accurate.

The key word there was "tantamount". Which means "as serious as" or "the equivalent of", not "is literally the same as".
In short I'm referring to the magnitude of his mental and emotional trauma, not attempting to specifically diagnose it.

 

[fireproof78]

Not sure I'd class wholesale murder (children and all) as a "hint" so much as a 60 foot high flashing neon sign.
Even this isn't his start down the dark path (that probably began the moment he left home to begin with), it's just the first major milestone along the way. It's not a binary state of being that one switches from one to the other so much as a gradient. Evil is insidious by nature. You don't realise how far you've come until you look back and can't see the shore anymore.
Turning on Windu was just the point of no return. After that, there is no shore for him.



That's not a fall, it's a temptation scene. For it to be a fall, Anakin would have to have some agency or choice in the matter.
Somehow Palpatine knows exactly what's going on with Padme and is planting the seed in Anakin's mind. It's entirely possible the story about Darth Plagueis influencing the midichlorians is a total load of bantha poodoo. We only have his word for it.
Anyway, for his part Anakin is a passive participant here, he makes no decisions or takes any actions beyond asking a question.



I'd characterise it as dispassionate and focused. Intimidating? Sure. Ruthless and brutal? No question. But not outwardly evil in the sense that he's deriving any satisfaction from it. It's a task. Nothing more. It's different with the Separatist Council. That he clearly relished, at least on some level.
He's not literally in the suit yet, but figuratively speaking he's already wearing the mask and the tear scene is the last vestige of Anakin's true face being consumed by Vader's.



The key word there was "tantamount". Which means "as serious as" or "the equivalent of", not "is literally the same as".
In short I'm referring to the magnitude of his mental and emotional trauma, not attempting to specifically diagnose it.

Agree to disagree then. I think the way the scenes were presented created the impression that Anakin's fall was a bit more quicker than was intended. Again, there is quite a bit of solid performance by Hayden in these scenes, and he certainly does better than in AOTC, with the more moody and angsty teen, but the structure of the film gives a poor impression of the speed of his transition.

As for the terms, sorry, I have a tough time when mental health diagnoses are bandied about. I prefer accuracy, but I did miss the "tantamount" phrasing, so I apologize for the reaction.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Actually, the way the movie was reshot was to slow down and clarify the impression of Anakin's fall. Originally it was written and shot like this:

1) Palpatine reveals to Anakin that he is Sidious, and offers to save Padme's life. Anakin agrees then and there to become his apprentice, never leaving the office and returning to the Temple.
2) Obi-Wan informs Mace he killed Grievous, and Mace gets his posse together to confront Palpatine. Not because of Anakin telling him Palpatine is Sidious (he didn't), but because now Palpatine has no excuse to continue the war.
3) The posse arrives to find Anakin at Palpatine's side. Mace tells Palpatine to give up his emergency powers, Palpatine refuses, Mace declares 'You're under arrest.' Only THEN do the Jedi learn he's a Sith Lord, thus being caught even more off-guard by his blitz (their instant deaths hence making a little more sense).
4) Anakin simply follows and silently watches the Mace/Palpatine duel as it unfolds. Mace's line 'You are under arrest, My Lord' is where we rejoin the final film.
5) I suspect 'What have I done' and the actual 'knighting' scene was a reshoot, with Anakin originally showing no remorse over Mace's death and being more concerned with gaining the power to prevent death (as opposed to the teary 'just help me save Padme's life - I can't live without her'). That tracks better with the 'automaton' Anakin we see in the next scene.

The reshoots add Anakin struggling with the decision more, at least initially trying to do the right thing (by returning to the Temple and telling Mace), but guilt/grief over essentially condemning Padme and his unborn child to death overwhelms him. His now missing the early part of the Jedi/Palpatine showdown also makes Mace (and thus the Jedi) look even more like a bad guy in his eyes, adding more justification to his turning on the would-be judge-jury-and-executioner. Where it backfires (as fireproof78 notes) is Anakin seemingly doing a personality 180 once he gets his Sith name, when it was originally more a 90 degree change.

 

[LJones41]

1) Palpatine reveals to Anakin that he is Sidious, and offers to save Padme's life. Anakin agrees then and there to become his apprentice, never leaving the office and returning to the Temple.
2) Obi-Wan informs Mace he killed Grievous, and Mace gets his posse together to confront Palpatine. Not because of Anakin telling him Palpatine is Sidious (he didn't), but because now Palpatine has no excuse to continue the war.
3) The posse arrives to find Anakin at Palpatine's side. Mace tells Palpatine to give up his emergency powers, Palpatine refuses, Mace declares 'You're under arrest.' Only THEN do the Jedi learn he's a Sith Lord, thus being caught even more off-guard by his blitz (their instant deaths hence making a little more sense).
4) Anakin simply follows and silently watches the Mace/Palpatine duel as it unfolds. Mace's line 'You are under arrest, My Lord' is where we rejoin the final film.
5) I suspect 'What have I done' and the actual 'knighting' scene was a reshoot, with Anakin originally showing no remorse over Mace's death and being more concerned with gaining the power to prevent death (as opposed to the teary 'just help me save Padme's life - I can't live without her'). That tracks better with the 'automaton' Anakin we see in the next scene.

If this was Lucas' original intent for this sequence, I'm glad that he dropped it. The sequence doesn't seem to have enough emotional tension. And Mace Windu showing up at Palpatine's office to automatically demand that the latter reject his emergency powers? There isn't much urgency in this scenario to me.

 

[Ithekro]

That probably would have gone with the Delegation of 2000 plot that was scrapped, but also would have given Padme something to do in the story and setup the beginnings of the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

 

[Reverend]

I think at a certain point there was also something to establish some actual cause for Anakin to suspect Padme might be having an affair with Obi-Wan. Don't recall if they actually were (I doubt it) but it was meant to look like they might be from Anakin's perspective. Anyway, it was supposed to inform the "you turned her against me!" line and would have made it seem a little less paranoid.
There's at least a trace of this in the deleted Bail/Mon Mothma scene where Padme says she knows a Jedi she can trust and it isn't Anakin but Obi-Wan, since the former was too close to the Chancellor.

If we want to go way back, an early draft of RotJ had Anakin ignorant of Padme's pregnancy and Kenobi hiding her away with Leia while he too Luke. (Also, in this draft Owen was Ben's brother!)
I can see why this wouldn't work in the movie as it'll leave Padme's eventual death to occur sometime later off-screen or requite Anakin to turn either at the beginning or RotS or at the end of AotC and this having RotS end when the twins are maybe a year or two old. Neither seem conducive to a satisfactory climax of the trilogy.

 

[Nightowl1701]

I think at a certain point there was also something to establish some actual cause for Anakin to suspect Padme might be having an affair with Obi-Wan. Don't recall if they actually were (I doubt it) but it was meant to look like they might be from Anakin's perspective. Anyway, it was supposed to inform the "you turned her against me!" line and would have made it seem a little less paranoid.
There's at least a trace of this in the deleted Bail/Mon Mothma scene where Padme says she knows a Jedi she can trust and it isn't Anakin but Obi-Wan, since the former was too close to the Chancellor.

That would have come right after Obi-Wan left for Utapau (and the deleted scene you just mentioned). Palpatine would call Anakin to his office (and we'd get our second Jar Jar cameo as he came in) to reveal that Obi-Wan had been seen at Padme's apartment. Palpatine deliberately frames it where Anakin can take it one of two ways - either Obi-Wan and Padme are having an affair, or Obi-Wan's working with Padme and the Delegation of 2000 to overthrow him (adding to his claim the Jedi are planning to take over). Either one works for his purposes.
That meeting happened in another deleted scene (the morning after the opera scene), where Obi-Wan basically says "I'm not blind - I know you two are together. I've stayed silent since you kept him happy and sane. But I sense something's going really wrong inside him now - please do what you can to help him." Padme mentions the meeting later, after Anakin's second nightmare vision (this time with Obi-Wan in the picture).

 

[JD]

Not sure I'd class wholesale murder (children and all) as a "hint" so much as a 60 foot high flashing neon sign.
Even this isn't his start down the dark path (that probably began the moment he left home to begin with), it's just the first major milestone along the way. It's not a binary state of being that one switches from one to the other so much as a gradient. Evil is insidious by nature. You don't realise how far you've come until you look back and can't see the shore anymore.
Turning on Windu was just the point of no return. After that, there is no shore for him.

OK, hint was the wrong word, but I just thought more of it as just showing how quickly he could lose control. And I guess I consider him having dark side as being different from him falling to the Dark Side.

That's not a fall, it's a temptation scene. For it to be a fall, Anakin would have to have some agency or choice in the matter.
Somehow Palpatine knows exactly what's going on with Padme and is planting the seed in Anakin's mind. It's entirely possible the story about Darth Plagueis influencing the midichlorians is a total load of bantha poodoo. We only have his word for it.
Anyway, for his part Anakin is a passive participant here, he makes no decisions or takes any actions beyond asking a question.

I was thinking of as being the start of his fall because it was when he first started considering using Dark Side powers.