Making sense of the Prophet's nature

[ClayHefner]

I suppose this has been discussed to death here. Sorry
However I watched "Emissary" yesterday- damn this episode rocks so hard-
and I wonder if what we learn about the Prophets can truly make sense.

The Prophets somehow do perceive the world as a "chain of events". ProphetJake, right at the beginning of the Sisko meets Prophets scenes says that "things that come BEFORE now" and "things that are to come" are no different from each other. Sisko then remarks humans can't go back to revisit past events.

At first I thought that was contradictory, because how can you grasp a concept of "before now" without being able to understand terms like "time" and "past".
And it's still odd to me. One explanation could be that, since Sisko is dealing with multiple prophets, some of the smarter, more open-minded Prophets try to grasp the terms and want to adapt to Sisko's line of thinking, while others just keep going "what the fuck is he talking about"
They even"simulate" a linear existence while talking to Sisko using humanoid bodies, so they might be talking about their own experiences during the conversation.

As in "what comes before now [the events I have been experiencing while I was talking to you in this linear existence I am emulating] is no different that what is now, [because I could travel between those events at will and change them as often as I want]
They also perceive Sisko "traveling" between events, too when he is caught in the Wolf 359 memories.

The main question is (imo): Do they really travel between events, or is this concept something they adapt to (what a linear word) "once" they meet the Sisko, and "before" (outside this chain of events), due to their non-corporeal and isolated nature, just couldn't have grasped the concept and thus lived in "all events at once"?

 

[Captrek]

Here’s a post I made on this subject a little while ago:

The wormhole aliens are a tough concept to get one’s mind around. I struggle with this concept of not experiencing linear time.

Beings that do not experience linear time cannot change or learn as we understand it. They say in “Emissary” that they do not have “ignorance of what is to come,” so they don’t learn the way we do, where we don’t know something, then we learn it, then we know it.

Whatever the wormhole aliens know, they always have known it and always will know it. They’re not omniscient, so whatever knowledge they have they still have to acquire at some point, but when they acquire that knowledge doesn’t matter. At some point, Sisko has to explain to them that he is not their enemy — one might say this conversation is “destined to happen” — but they have always known it and always will. That the conversation itself appears to take place in linear time is an illusion created for Sisko’s benefit.

 

[PSGarak]

I suppose this has been discussed to death here. Sorry
However I watched "Emissary" yesterday- damn this episode rocks so hard-
and I wonder if what we learn about the Prophets can truly make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me. That's an inherent flaw/weakness in any plot point dealing with non-linear time or time travel. The human brain isn't wired to perceive things on that level, so anything they say about themselves or their condition appears contradictory or nonsensical. On the other hand, having them speak in such a way did a very good job of conveying a true sense of being "alien". I really don't know how they could have made it clearer, or even if they should have tried.

 

[ClayHefner]

Here’s a post I made on this subject a little while ago:

The wormhole aliens are a tough concept to get one’s mind around. I struggle with this concept of not experiencing linear time.

Beings that do not experience linear time cannot change or learn as we understand it. They say in “Emissary” that they do not have “ignorance of what is to come,” so they don’t learn the way we do, where we don’t know something, then we learn it, then we know it.

Whatever the wormhole aliens know, they always have known it and always will know it. They’re not omniscient, so whatever knowledge they have they still have to acquire at some point, but when they acquire that knowledge doesn’t matter. At some point, Sisko has to explain to them that he is not their enemy — one might say this conversation is “destined to happen” — but they have always known it and always will. That the conversation itself appears to take place in linear time is an illusion created for Sisko’s benefit.

Makes sense.
The oddities of this conversation can only really be explained away if we take them as"translation errors" in the interface.

 

[PorthosShadow]

Beings who experience time all at once can be a little confusing and personally I'm glad the series never tried to explain this. That would have just resulted in a lot of headaches. The way I choose wrap my tiny brain around it is that the prophets obviously know when and where everything is going to happen and thus when it comes to interacting with linear beings they act accordingly. Thats probably not an easy thing for them to do but I suspect its akin to speaking another language.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

I've always had questions about this. If the prophets sent 'Sarah' to create Sisko, then wouldn't she have explained some of her human experiences to the other wormhole aliens when she returned to them? They obviously would have recognized Sisko right off the bat and would have had some concept of what it was like to be one of his species, including being linear. Also, they took it upon themselves to be the guardians / guides of Bajor, but they never once investigated what existence was like for the Bajorans? Why not? It seems to me like they would have and would have discovered that the Bajorans were linear and would have come to understand what linear existence was all about. Also, were the prophecies given to the Bajorans by the prophets accidental. In the sense that not knowing the fine details of a linear existence they accidentally mentioned things to Bajoran about future events, not knowing that the Bajorans as a society had not yet experienced those events. In doing so they may have inadvertently caused the Bajorans to see them as deities and influenced the whole the Bajoran society to such an extent that they actually altered what was to be the Bajorans' future. Would the prophets, being able to see all portions of time at once, not notice such a change in the time line and both A : realize the ramifications that present events have on the future in a linear time line, and B : revisit the moments in which their influence alters the time line and correct their own actions?

??

 

[Damask]

I've always had questions about this. If the prophets sent 'Sarah' to create Sisko, then wouldn't she have explained some of her human experiences to the other wormhole aliens when she returned to them? They obviously would have recognized Sisko right off the bat and would have had some concept of what it was like to be one of his species, including being linear.

See the thing is they didn't know who Sisko was when they met. Once they realized that he was "The Sisko" they then sent Sarah back in time (in a human sense) to ensure that Sisko would be born.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

I've always had questions about this. If the prophets sent 'Sarah' to create Sisko, then wouldn't she have explained some of her human experiences to the other wormhole aliens when she returned to them? They obviously would have recognized Sisko right off the bat and would have had some concept of what it was like to be one of his species, including being linear.

See the thing is they didn't know who Sisko was when they met. Once they realized that he was "The Sisko" they then sent Sarah back in time (in a human sense) to ensure that Sisko would be born.

That makes no sense. Why would they have to send her back to make sure he was born if he had already been born. That's like if you invented a time machine that made you the richest man alive, and the first person to use it was you so that you could go back in time and tell yourself to invent a time machine. You wouldn't need to It's superfluous.

No they didn't send her back because Sisko existed. Sisko existed because they sent her out during that original point in time.

 

[Damask]

No they didn't send her back because Sisko existed. Sisko existed because they sent her out during that original point in time.

Which doesn't make sense either as if they had done that they would have known who Sisko was when they "first" meet.

They had to have done something after meeting Sisko. Whether Sisko in Emissary was just a normal human and the Prophets on meeting him changed history by sending Sarah out afterwards I'm not sure.

 

[ClayHefner]

Maybe it means that, while in a linear existence, an event would shape the chain of events in a linear direction, Sisko's encounter shaped events for the Prophets in both directions.
Like that encounter was a "node of events" that both affected their "former" dealings with the Pagh-Wraiths (maybe they were "created" due to Sisko), swallowing Akorem and sending him back for Sisko etc.

On the other hand, the Prophets, upon Sisko's mention of the orbs, say that they seek contact with other species, as though at least this event seems independent from meeting Sisko.

The question is if the "past" and "future" are really unchangeable for the Prophets, or that they *can* change events and their existence changes as a result.
"Emissary" seems to support the former theory, "Sacrifice of Angels" the latter ("choosing a different path"). Maybe they made him a Prophet "after" he chose a "different path".

 

[psikeyhackr]

The only way this makes sense to me is that the Prophets actually do understand linear time even though they may be able to move in and out of it at will. They are handing Sisko a bunch of BS in The Emissary in order to manipulate him into serving their purposes. The pawns aren't supposed to see the whole board.

psik