Make me understand "Ensign" Kim as a "Senior Officer"??

[diankra]

Well, it would probably depend on the post they hold. On Voyager, Ensign Kim was the Ops Officer. He was definately young for the post, but it was his job. So, as head of Ops, he would be considered a Senior Officer aboard Voyager.

To be more specific, Kim was one of the supposedly numerous Ops Officers of the vessel when coming aboard. A couple of hours into the mission, he had become the only surviving Ops Officer, and therefore a department head by default.

Similarly, the Flight Control Department probably lost its best and brightest when Stadi was killed. Tom Paris might have been the highest-ranking surviving specialist in that field, hence another instant department head.

In these exceptional circumstances, I see no major problem in having Kim be a "senior officer" even though fresh out of the Academy. He might well have remained the highest-ranking Ops specialist throughout the seven years, too, senior to his department even if not to the other top officers aboard. It's a separate mystery why Janeway didn't promote Kim in rank to better match his prestigious position, of course...

I don’t understand why the DS9 writers ‘downgraded’ O’Brien’s status from an officer to a non-com.

Because they needed a down-to-earth character. And because TNG "Realm of Fear" specifically needed a familiar character who would be significantly lower in rank than Reg Barclay, so that he could be ordered around by said nervous wreck.

Correct me if I’m wrong but when we first see O’Brien in TNG isn’t he a Lt. Jg?

The character played by Colm Meaney wears various pips on his collar during early TNG, including one bright (Ensign) and two bright (Lieutenant). Later on, we also learn that this character is Transporter Chief O'Brien, even though he is seen in other jobs and in different uniforms in the early episodes where the writers hadn't fully invented him yet.

However, to be sure, we never quite learn that this TNG character would be a commissioned officer. There is never direct dialogue to that effect, and indeed there is direct dialogue in "Family" to say that O'Brien is a noncom, no matter what his collar shows. The writers always felt O'Brien should be a lowly "bluecollar" type of character, even if the costuming department sometimes disagreed.

We might just as well say that our imperfect TV sets fooled us, and that O'Brien's collar always had a single dark pip to denote generic NCO rank (until replaced in DS9 by a more specific Senior Chief Petty Officer symbol).

Timo Saloniemi

Wasn't O'Brien referred to as Lieutenant once, in the second season's The Icarus Factor?
Wish I could find the piece to be able to quote provenance, but I clearly remember an interview with Gene Roddenberry or someone close to him around 1988/89 stating that there was no division between Officers and Enlisted in Starfleet (TNG Starfleet, that is, there clearly was in TOS) - the Enterprise carried civilian specialists, families, and Starfleet officers, and everyone in Starfleet was an officer who'd graduated from the academy. That idea obviously went by the way in later years.

 

[alicelouise]

In the US military, all branches, they have officers of the line(command) and staff officers(specilaists). Star Trek seems to be based on that. In TOS Dr. McCoy was the Ship Surgeon but was not 1st or 2nd officer. If I'm right Sulu, Chekhov or Uhura would have command if Kirk, Spock, or Scotty weren't available. In Voyager Torres and Carey are engineers without the command authority. In one episode of Voyager, Tom Paris pulls rank on B'Lanna by invoking his Bridge Officer designation. Harry Kim could have the same designation.

Star Trek does play fast and loose with ranks. In the Navy if someone doesn't move past Ensign in a short time, they are cashiered out of the service. This would go for Chekhov as well. He was still an Ensign at the end of the 3rd season. Harry Kim, after a 7 year assignment, would be a Lt Cmdr as would Tom Paris. Chekhov would be a Lieutenant.

 

[Timo]

Wasn't O'Brien referred to as Lieutenant once, in the second season's "The Icarus Factor"?

Nope - that bit is found in "Where Silence Has Lease" instead. One might interpret it creatively, though: Riker could be speaking to Lieutenant Worf instead, or he might mistake the Chief for a Lieutenant because the pips look similar (of course, in reality they are Lieutenant's pips!). It's not as if Riker would know O'Brien well at this point or anything - he could easily be mistaken about the Chief's rank.

In the Navy if someone doesn't move past Ensign in a short time, they are cashiered out of the service.

Not so in the old Royal Navy, where there weren't that many assignments and subsequently not much demand for Commanders and Captains. And perhaps not in Starfleet were rank need not be tied to payscale, and where people continue active service till their eighties and thus aren't in any hurry to "complete" their rank ascent.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Fergy]

Maybe TPTB go by position, not rank?

 

[Lynx]

I remember seeing Wesley in one briefing room scene inBOBW talking about the deflector. I never saw Ro in there. TNG did a good job of keeping the senior officers in. DS9 was pretty clear that the main characters were department heads. I have no idea why Kim or Paris would ever be in a briefing unless someone specifically wanted to hear from them. The only one i can picture is Paris because plotting a course in the DQ would be important. Any Harry dialogue can be passed to B'Elanna. Hell that could have been a character plot point for harry: getting into a briefing and his ideas heard. Instead hes just instant senior officer.

Wasn't Ro in the briefing room in "Ensign Ro"? I remember her sitting there somewhat bored when Dr.Crusher menitoned some Bajoran who was a good dancer.

I have a feeling that I saw Ro in the briefing room in "Conundrum" too but I'm not sure. Must check tomorrow.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Was there ever an instance of anyone higher in rank than Kim filling in for him at ops? If not, he would be the senior officer in that department as others have mentioned in this thread.

It's possible that Kim might even have been the only officer in the the ship's ops department from the beginning with everyone else below him being enlisted. With a total complement of only 141 on the Voyager at the start, there may not have been that many people designated to man that bridge position to begin with unless Starfleet has a policy that only officers can serve at any bridge station...

 

[Timo]

Was there ever an instance of anyone higher in rank than Kim filling in for him at ops?

To my knowledge, the other yellowshirts seen there were almost all Maquis, and we can debate the interpretation of Maquis rank pins till cows come home. However, at least three times, the post was manned by the Maquis Ayala, and he was referred to as "Lieutenant" in dialogue.

Then again, Ayala also frequented Tactical and Conn, so we might argue that he didn't really belong in Kim's department, and that Kim was indeed the senior surviving dedicated Ops Officer aboard the ship.

It's possible that Kim might even have been the only officer in the the ship's ops department from the beginning with everyone else below him being enlisted.

One should note that this was not stated in "Caretaker": Kim was never said to be "the" Ops officer, only "an" Ops officer, allowing for a higher-ranking department head who would then perish during the hop to Delta.

OTOH, one might argue that bridge stations should have been manned by the most high-ranking officers possible when the ship entered Badlands. Was the Chief Ops Officer off duty at the time, letting the new kid learn the ropes? A bit risky if one thinks of the mission as "critical" or "demanding", but Janeway might not have been that nervous about it. For her, it may have been a milk run, and a perfect teaching opportunity.

Or should we argue that Ensign Rollins filling in for Tuvok at Tactical was in fact Chief of Ops, there thus being no real harm with having the new kid at the other console?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

It's possible that Kim might even have been the only officer in the the ship's ops department from the beginning with everyone else below him being enlisted.

One should note that this was not stated in "Caretaker": Kim was never said to be "the" Ops officer, only "an" Ops officer, allowing for a higher-ranking department head who would then perish during the hop to Delta.

But the same could be said for LaForge as an engineer or Jadzia Dax as a science officer. That statement of Kim as "an Ops officer" wouldn't really change anything if the doctor was merely talking about Kim's position in general.

OTOH, one might argue that bridge stations should have been manned by the most high-ranking officers possible when the ship entered Badlands. Was the Chief Ops Officer off duty at the time, letting the new kid learn the ropes? A bit risky if one thinks of the mission as "critical" or "demanding", but Janeway might not have been that nervous about it. For her, it may have been a milk run, and a perfect teaching opportunity.

Or should we argue that Ensign Rollins filling in for Tuvok at Tactical was in fact Chief of Ops, there thus being no real harm with having the new kid at the other console?

Anything is possible, of course, but it's also possible that the Ops position on the Voyager may have only rated an ensign's billet too. It would also explain why he was kept at that rank for so long...

 

[Sector 7]

In drastic situations, such as loss of much of the crew, it is plausible that Ensign Kim could become Operations Officer.
In seven years, Harry Kim should have managed a rise in the ranks, regardless of how he got there in the first place. Once contact was established with StarFleet, a much overdue promotion should have been awarded, based on his accomplishments as a Bridge Officer.

 

[Cicero]

Star Trek does play fast and loose with ranks. In the Navy if someone doesn't move past Ensign in a short time, they are cashiered out of the service. This would go for Chekhov as well. He was still an Ensign at the end of the 3rd season.

Chekhov could barely slip by, since he didn't appear until the second season. If he was promoted at some time just after Turnabout Intruder, he'd have been fine.

Harry Kim, after a 7 year assignment, would be a Lt Cmdr as would Tom Paris. Chekhov would be a Lieutenant.

Kim actually made this point to Janeway in the seventh season, in Nightingale, I think.

 

[Cicero]

Wasn't Ro in the briefing room in "Ensign Ro"? I remember her sitting there somewhat bored when Dr.Crusher menitoned some Bajoran who was a good dancer.

She was a mission specialist at the time (representing Admiral Kennelly), so her presence was sensible.

I have a feeling that I saw Ro in the briefing room in "Conundrum" too but I'm not sure. Must check tomorrow.

Too, in Conundrum her presence made sense; she was on the bridge when the ship was attacked, and was assumed a senior officer (like Worf was presumed in command).

 

[alicelouise]

We could give the maximum benefit of a doubt and just say that Capt. Janeway just had too much on her plate to be pinning deserved new pips on her Sr. officers collars. The same argument has been made for nuBSG for Adm Adama. His situation seems much more justifiable as he doen't have the reset button.

 

[Timo]

...Indeed, we might argue that Janeway felt she did not have the authority to promote anybody until she could get the paperwork cleared with Starfleet Command.

The only promotions we know of, apart from the initial decision to give the Maquis their make-believe ranks (a practical necessity) and Tom Paris back his Starfleet status (a maneuver possibly planned in advance with Starfleet Command), would be Tuvok to LtCmdr and Paris to Lt(jg). And we could argue that both of those were reversions of earlier demotions, considering that Tuvok wore LtCmdr pips for much of the first season and then participated in a mutiny. Janeway may well have felt entitled to demote people even if she didn't have the clearance to promote them.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain X]

This goes for other Trek shows too, I guess...But I just noticed it the most on Voyager...

Harry Kim was referred to as a Senior Officer, but there were officers with higher ranks running around that weren't considered "Senior".

Is this normal in the military? Can an ensign that mans a certain important station on a ship be considered "Senior" while higher ranking officers not manning such stations not be considered senior? Or is this just another Trek made-up thing that we have to live with?

(And while another subject...After 5, 6 or 7 years, didn't the dude earn a bump in rank??)

During my time in AFROTC, I was told that officer grades O-1 through O-3 were junior officers and that O-4 and up were considered senior officers.

It's also my understanding that Kim really should've been promoted to fit his position as the senior operations officer, and those under him promoted appropriately as well, though I can't remember the pilot as to whether or not there were any higher ranking operations officers to begin with who were killed.

As for RDM, he was much like me in that he was part of the ROTC program but never commissioned, just that in his case he was part of the Navy ROTC.

 

[alicelouise]

All of the Star Trek series seem to be top heavy with officers. In a typical company of say 1000; the vast majority would be enlisted/non-com officers along with Warrant Officers. In Star Trek there are few enlisted main characters. In TOS there was Yeoman Rand only in the 1st season though. In TNG there was O'Brien in DS9 as well. It has been argued by some that Constable Odo was closer to a Senior Non Com Officer than an officer. Of course, in Voyager we had 7 or 9, Neelix, and Kes. On Enterprise there was the Chef and Phlox. The writers did not seem interested in exploring below decks for the series as a whole.

 

[Captain X]

Phlox was a civilian. ENT showed us probably the lagest number of enlisted folks out of all the shows between Starfleet people like Cutler and Navokavich, and the MACOs, who were apparently all enlisted except for Major Hayes (as confusing as that is).

DS9 had O'Brien (thought at times they showed him issuing orders to officers and them addressing him as "sir" in reply) and a few other crewmen who were given no insignia, but on TNG they had him wearing the pips of an officer and it seemed like his "chief" designation had more to do with his job then his rank.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

In drastic situations, such as loss of much of the crew, it is plausible that Ensign Kim could become Operations Officer.
In seven years, Harry Kim should have managed a rise in the ranks, regardless of how he got there in the first place. Once contact was established with StarFleet, a much overdue promotion should have been awarded, based on his accomplishments as a Bridge Officer.

I couldn't agree more. In the US Navy the LTJG grade is a given if you are an Ensign for 2 years. This kinda bothered me about Voyager.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

Phlox was a civilian. ENT showed us probably the lagest number of enlisted folks out of all the shows between Starfleet people like Cutler and Navokavich, and the MACOs, who were apparently all enlisted except for Major Hayes (as confusing as that is).

DS9 had O'Brien (thought at times they showed him issuing orders to officers and them addressing him as "sir" in reply) and a few other crewmen who were given no insignia, but on TNG they had him wearing the pips of an officer and it seemed like his "chief" designation had more to do with his job then his rank.

O'brien was definitely a non-commissioned officer yet he issues orders to Ensigns! What gives?

 

[greenmystik]

O'brien was definitely a non-commissioned officer yet he issues orders to Ensigns! What gives?

Maybe it was a respect thing. He obviously new a lot about hardware and software so they knew he wasn't just their to boss them around.

Or maybe their was an order in place from Sisko for everyone to "obey orders from the chief."

 

[Captain X]

No, the writers just evidently thought that "Chief of Operations" = Chief Engineer, so they treated him like Geordi bossing around one of his nameless ensigns.