Mad Men, Season 5. General Discussion Thread (spoilers welcome)

[Snaploud]

Mad Men is a smart show, so I wonder if they're going to bring up in future episodes how odd other people in the office and (especially) in other Madison Avenue agencies would find Joan's being raised to the partnership. Valuable as she is, she's support staff, and does not occupy would be normally be regarded as a partnership track position. Her being made a partner, and especially as she's a woman, would create a lot of buzz about how and why she got it (if Peggy had been made a partner, well, she's a little young, but that's a common and understandable career trajectory).

I'm sure they'll ask questions regarding her being a woman and a partner, but I don't think it's fair to call her work just that of support staff. Price certainly seems dependent upon her to get the company's finances in order. In modern times, she would probably have a title like Vice President of Finance.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I'm sure they'll ask questions regarding her being a woman and a partner, but I don't think it's fair to call her work just that of support staff. Price certainly seems dependent upon her to get the company's finances in order. In modern times, she would probably have a title like Vice President of Finance.

She's the office manager. That's a job title that still exists today, with much the same duties. It's not a partnership track position, typically. "John Harris" would have not much more normal expectation of being a partner under those conditions than Joan Harris, though his work experience would be different in other ways.

 

[Snaploud]

I'm sure they'll ask questions regarding her being a woman and a partner, but I don't think it's fair to call her work just that of support staff. Price certainly seems dependent upon her to get the company's finances in order. In modern times, she would probably have a title like Vice President of Finance.

She's the office manager. That's a job title that still exists today, with much the same duties. It's not a partnership track position, typically. "John Harris" would have not much more normal expectation of being a partner under those conditions than Joan Harris, though his work experience would be different in other ways.

She was essential in getting all the files needed to start the company, and she organized their start-up from day one. It's not uncommon for those who are instrumental in the creation of a business to eventually obtain some form of ownership in the company.

 

[Lord Garth]

This could've been a season finale itself! I can't believe there are still two more episodes.

I wonder how the series will work with so many major characters spreading out.

 

[the G-man]

This could've been a season finale itself! I can't believe there are still two more episodes.

Weiner is a little like David Chase with 'the Sopranos.'. He's been known to put the big stuff in the penultimate episode, not the season finale.

 

[Lord Garth]

To put it bluntly, the more I think about it, the more disturbing it is. Joan was "sexed in" into a "gang" (meaning the Partners) as if it were the Bloods or the Crips. If it weren't for the fact that it would probably mean the end of the series, I'd like to see SCDP fail.

I wonder if we'll see any old characters at CGC? In addition to Kurt & Smitty, maybe that's where Sal works. I thought Don was going to have an aneurysm when Peggy said she was going to work over there.

 

[Roger Wilco]

I wonder if we'll see any old characters at CGC? In addition to Kurt & Smitty, maybe that's where Sal works. I thought Don was going to have an aneurysm when Peggy said she was going to work over there.

I hope we keep seeing Peggy at all, and that she doesn't "disappear" from Mad Men now that she's gone to another agency.

 

[Maurice]

Peggy's too major a character to vanish off the show like Sal or Kinsey.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I agree. Maybe the show will merely shift to depicting two competing firms. Maybe not every single episode. But more consitently than a competitor has been seen before.

 

[J.T.B.]

She's the office manager. That's a job title that still exists today, with much the same duties. It's not a partnership track position, typically.

She was office manager at the old agency but her doorplate in the last episode seems to indicate that she is traffic manager at SCDP. This is an important position, sort of an ad agency equivalent of an operations manager; she would prioritize and regulate projects in regard to internal workload. I agree, though, not normally a step ro partnership.

I will say this about Don: Despite whatever you can say about his honesty and fidelity, he does appear to have a "code," and a lot of it is based on merit. He identifies with the underdog, rebels against the entitled, and is quite "social-class blind," going back to the first episode when he talks to the black waiter about Lucky Strike. His identity theft was really his attempt to level the playing field in a game he felt was rigged against people like him. He certainly took Peggy for granted, he may have even forgotten that she is still an underdog.

As far as his wives, Don's experiences in life don't lead toward a very enlightened treatment of women. At the time, successful men having affairs on the side was common and even expected. There are signs that Don is realizing that it's destructive, but time will tell.

Peggy will have to stay on the show, she is really the focus of the "new" side of social changes that the show wants to look at, both socially and creatively. Her destiny is "modern" -- then unconventional -- advertising. If she can find the equivalent of Stan and Ginsberg at the new agency she will do OK, if not... It was sad to see her go, but I was impressed that she could leave on her own terms with head held high, in contrast to Joan, who got something she wanted but can never really be proud of it.

Justin

 

[Lord Garth]

Upthread I mentioned surprise about how fast the times were changing during the '60s but how much of it was just window dressing? The styles and the music changed, sure. But what changed where it really matters?

"The Other Woman" shows that little changed in upper-management, family life, or society at large; at least for women. Don treated Peggy unprofessionally and Joan had to put out for a partnership an to secure business for the firm.

Odd that despite being seen as old-fashioned, Freddy is more forward-thinking than SCDP.

 

[Snaploud]

Upthread I mentioned surprise about how fast the times were changing during the '60s but how much of it was just window dressing? The styles and the music changed, sure. But what changed where it really matters?

"The Other Woman" shows that little changed in upper-management, family life, or society at large; at least for women. Don treated Peggy unprofessionally and Joan had to put out for a partnership an to secure business for the firm.

Odd that despite being seen as old-fashioned, Freddy is more forward-thinking than SCDP.

The big shift was that women ended up in higher-paid positions (as shown with Peggy and Joan). That may seem like just window-dressing, but it would take time for women in those positions to be seen as normal. It's the generation that would be hired after Joan and Peggy reach those positions who will be most susceptible to the change. They'll be the ones who look at Peggy and Joan and just think "that's my boss."

 

[Maurice]

I have mixed feelings about the episode, as it teeters on the brink of the characters acting for reasons of the story rather than acting in character. As I said upthread, given the slimy weasel that Pete is it seems out of character that everyone would just accept his word, especially when Pete claims that Joan is on-board. Even Joan shouldn't have bought it. I can see Joan having done what she did in the right circumstances, but the story seemed to put the characters on a rail to get them to a destination without taking into account how all of them should act.

 

[the G-man]

They believed Pete when he said Joan was thinking about it because they wanted to believe it.

As far as Joan goes, the season has set up: she's a single mom, she's getting divorced, she'd like to afford someone other than her drunken mom to watch the kid, her fridge is broken, she misses being the object of desire by men, etc.

 

[J.T.B.]

Upthread I mentioned surprise about how fast the times were changing during the '60s but how much of it was just window dressing? The styles and the music changed, sure. But what changed where it really matters?

"The Other Woman" shows that little changed in upper-management, family life, or society at large; at least for women. Don treated Peggy unprofessionally and Joan had to put out for a partnership an to secure business for the firm.

Peggy, on the basis of her own work and experience, made a deal with another firm which any male would have been proud to have made. She will now be head copywriter, making more money than she'd dared ask for. As she said, it's what Don would have done, and she's right. That's a pretty big change, really.

Justin

 

[marillion]

Don is no saint but Megan should have at least mentioned the possibility of leaving for eight weeks.

She would be going away for three months (12 weeks).

Well that's even worse.

I feel like in a healthy relationship, they'd both be okay with temporary separation for the purpose of a career, but they'd check with each other to make sure they were on the same page.

The thing to not forget is that this is still the 60's and Don is really a holdover from the 50's... Women's lib was really just starting to find its voice in the 60s and the "old school" men like Don resisted it simply out of principle.

My brother and his wife spent months and months apart back in the early 90's as both persued degrees and then work that forced them to be inseperate cities...

Back in the 60's, the wife was still supposed to be the homemaker, submissive to the husband's wishes..

And let's face it.. Megan is a hot little number.. And while Don's no slouch, he's an older guy who knows his wife would be a magnet to young handsome actors.

Even in this day and age, where such a situation would be more acceptible, a husband and wife need to always talk about this kind of thing first. Heck, my wife gets bugged if I don't give her more than a couple week's notice if I have to be out of town for even a couple days.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Jaguar's reaction to the episode.

 

[gblews]

The Jag XKE was the first car I actually "lusted" after. I settled for a Jensen-Healy which was considerably cheaper, but had similar lines. the guy who worked on my Jens owned two XKE's, one dark green, one red. The green one had a 12 cylinder engine...OMG...

I can totally relate to SCDP's emotion related pitch.

 

[Harvey]

Peggy's too major a character to vanish off the show like Sal or Kinsey.

Peggy was a central character in the first four seasons, but her role in season five has been rather secondary. If we don't really see her again, I'm okay with it. Her departure had a nice sense of finality to it, although it certainly left the door open for her return.

(Then again, I was certain we'd see Sal again after season three, and so far, nada).

 

[ALF]

This could've been a season finale itself! I can't believe there are still two more episodes.

Weiner is a little like David Chase with 'the Sopranos.'. He's been known to put the big stuff in the penultimate episode, not the season finale.

I think the G-man is right, and I think the big bombshell will be dropped in a couple of hours. As for tonight, I think the shit will have to start hitting the fan, since there's only 2 left. This whole theme of "every man for himself" has got to start playing out.

Ginsberg will be involved. I'm kind of hoping he'll tell Don off.

Roger? I don't know but he's been the comic relief all season. I love Roger he's so full of himself but he never genuinely means anyone harm, he's just super selfish. And I'm glad he's not with Joan. I loved how she told him it's "some other lucky lady's turn [to be impregnated by him!]"

Some more Pete vs. Lane would be nice, but Pete's storyline is far clearer than Lane's. How exactly did Lane get into so much debt? Remember the third episode this season, Lane found himself a taste for being sketchy over the phone with woman and made an impression on the mystery ladies' squeeze? Where the hell was that leading? I was thinking escort clubs, but wouldn't we have seen such outings?

Is Megan going to stay around? I'm guessing yes, as the writing has been incredibly fresh; I think she's a good foil for Don emotionally.

How much of Peggy will we see at the other agency? My guess is a lot (but watch her not be in the next two shows at all ). I'm hoping the tension between the agencies will start right away. I would love to see a Don vs. Peggy showdown over a client. It'll be like Obi Wan and Anakin. Sort of.

(Then again, I was certain we'd see Sal again after season three, and so far, nada).

Seeing Paul again seemed like a clear message to me that Sal would be worked back in again somehow... Sal seems much more likely for a lasting storyline as he's a fan favorite. Does anyone really think Paul>Sal? Come on. He'll be back for sure.

I'd love to see what happened to Sal's wife Kitty, too. I'm hoping that Sal will gain some respect at another (maybe all gay) agency? Is it unthinkable that a gay-friendly advertising firm could exist in the 1960s in New York City? I was born in the late 70s so I have no idea.

Something unexpected would be nice, too. I'd say he's either all out flaming gay or perhaps even more regressed than before. Perhaps he's hit rock bottom.