Don was wrong in the way he talked to Megan, but going away for months would have been a bit selfish of her. Being against that wasn't unreasonable of him even if it makes him a hypocrit.
Mad Men, Season 5. General Discussion Thread (spoilers welcome)
- Thread starter the G-man
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If it was for the part of a lifetime, like a major movie role, would it be selfish? If he supports her career, shouldn't he support that? They don't have children. I suppose it's one of the many compromises married couples didn't have to work out when Don was first married to Betty.
And I'm not defending Don for doing that. However, that was mid-life crisis/aberration. And when did bad behavior on the part of one spouse (especially in a prior marriage) justify bad behavior on the part of the other spouse?
Really? So if you came home and your spouse just announced he or she was moving out for three months for work without any discussion you'd be fine with that?
Because that's what Megan did. It was clear until that point Don thought the play was in NYC.
And, again, you think a divorced father should just forgo his weekend visits with his kids for three months? You must not know a lot about how custody cases work because that's the kind of thing that would give someone like Betty a perfect excuse to curtail his visits and drive a deeper wedge between Don and the kids (you just know, given her past behavior, Betty would tell them "See, Megan and your father don't care about you....she went away and he'd rather go visit her than you")
Basically, other than a year vs three months, how is what Megan did to Don that different than what Joan's husband did to her?
She should have spoken to him about this possibility earlier. He should have not immediately said "no way." Neither was right but neither was completely wrong.
Repeal of the WI "equal pay act" didn't make it legal for women to be discriminated against. It changed some of the procedural rules. People can disagree about whether those changes were good or bad. Supporters of the repeal claimed the law didn't work and only benefited the trial lawyers. Opponents of the repeal argued the law was a good deterrent. But you're making it sound as if the intent was specifically to end equal pay when, in fact, the law still prohibits discrimination and still provides enforcement mechanisms through state agencies and federal courts. Nobody really disagrees on the principle. People just degree on how to realize it.
And, see? Now we have to talk politics. Because, like most women, you just can't let a man have the last word.
(Seriously, just yanking your chain with that last comment)
Agree. If the partners were the pimps, Joan turned out to be a willing "whore". Lets be real.
Joan has shown herself to be a person who can handle this type of thing without so much as blinking an eye. After all, they asked her to be a whore, not come in and work on a week-end. When Pete subtely threatened her with this, she brushed him off as only Joan could. She only changed her mind when Lane told her what she stood to gain from this.
Yes, Don has some integrity, driven home by his showing up at Joan's to make a personal appeal to her to not go through with it -- loved the fact that we find out later that she had already done the deed. I think Don's feelings about Joan and to a lesser extent, Peggy, also relate to his relationship with his "wife", the lady in Cali who died, can't think of her name.
Great episode.
I think Don is genuinely trying not to repeat his past mistakes, particularly with Megan. That said anyone who has ever tried to change a lifetime of ingrained behaviour knows it's not easy. You have setbacks and make mistakes. Not too many people think before they speak when they're in an argument. Often they just react and then regret their impulsive words later.
Peggy represents women breaking new ground in society and it goes without saying she'll hit roadblocks and from even those who are actually in her corner.
Just like he's learning to adapt with Megan on a personal level Don is also having to learn new behaviour in the workplace particularly in regard to Peggy. That said I don't think Peggy bears Don any ill will. She's stayed so long because he has indeed been her mentor and gave her opportunities when no one else did. A different guy in Don's position and Peggy might never have gotten any chance to move ahead.
I also think Peggy will not get what she might envision elsewhere. For all his faults Don was pretty much just the kind of guy she needed to meet to help get her started on her way. She might not be so lucky where she's going. She'll need all her skills and self-confidence to now really fight for respect and for what she deserves.
Don respects ability in people, but he's also a man of his time with built in perceptions and expectations. I think Don is adaptable, but like a lot of us he has to suffer and lose something before he learns its real value to him.
Peggy represents women breaking new ground in society and it goes without saying she'll hit roadblocks and from even those who are actually in her corner.
Just like he's learning to adapt with Megan on a personal level Don is also having to learn new behaviour in the workplace particularly in regard to Peggy. That said I don't think Peggy bears Don any ill will. She's stayed so long because he has indeed been her mentor and gave her opportunities when no one else did. A different guy in Don's position and Peggy might never have gotten any chance to move ahead.
I also think Peggy will not get what she might envision elsewhere. For all his faults Don was pretty much just the kind of guy she needed to meet to help get her started on her way. She might not be so lucky where she's going. She'll need all her skills and self-confidence to now really fight for respect and for what she deserves.
Don respects ability in people, but he's also a man of his time with built in perceptions and expectations. I think Don is adaptable, but like a lot of us he has to suffer and lose something before he learns its real value to him.
Meghan applied for a three-month job in Boston without telling Don, and she thinks that his supporting her becoming an actor automatically means he must assume that she will be taking parts in other cities for long periods of time.
Yeah, I'm not buying that Don is the jackass in that situation. There are plenty of acting roles in New York, and, while there might be good reasons to seek out roles outside of New York, the topic deserved a discussion as a couple long before her job search reached that point.
As for Joan: She deserves a partnership for all the work she puts into that company, and she would never get the opportunity without a situation like this one. Add in that she will soon be divorced while trying to raise a baby on her own, and I would probably advise her to take the deal. I'm not buying the whole "it's not worth it" argument. Maybe it's not worth it when you're more financially secure or you have real opportunities to advance in the workplace, but that's not her situation. The women of that era rose up largely through shady situations like this one, and I'm certainly not going to judge them for it. They paved the way for future generations not having to make the same choices.
Yeah, I'm not buying that Don is the jackass in that situation. There are plenty of acting roles in New York, and, while there might be good reasons to seek out roles outside of New York, the topic deserved a discussion as a couple long before her job search reached that point.
As for Joan: She deserves a partnership for all the work she puts into that company, and she would never get the opportunity without a situation like this one. Add in that she will soon be divorced while trying to raise a baby on her own, and I would probably advise her to take the deal. I'm not buying the whole "it's not worth it" argument. Maybe it's not worth it when you're more financially secure or you have real opportunities to advance in the workplace, but that's not her situation. The women of that era rose up largely through shady situations like this one, and I'm certainly not going to judge them for it. They paved the way for future generations not having to make the same choices.
Still, one wonders whether that might have been easier to bear than the knowledge that people are now going to be constantly making comments behind her back (and even occasionally to her face) like, "Well, yeah, she's a partner...but you know how she got it, don't you?"
I'm really beginning to sour on Megan. She's beginning to seem the center of her own universe just as much as Betty ever was (and is).
And when it comes to her acting, she's beginning to strike me as a real dilettante. More and more, she's looking like someone who probably took drama classes in college (with much encouragement from her father, who fancies himself an intellectual and a progenitor of artistes) but quickly lost much of her enthusiasm once the fun classes and school plays ended and the realities of actually making a living set in. She now returns to this "lifelong dream" only after being prodded by her father and after realizing that she now has a rich husband to ease the way and provide a safety net.
I think her surprise and dismay at the meat-market ambience in the audition scene in this latest episode is a big hint that she has had vitually no experience with professional-level acting. And her quick temper and easily bruised ego (not to mention that she's already given up on this "dream" at least once before) makes me doubt she will be willing to endure the "indignities" of being treated the way fledgling actors are usually treated.
In short, while there are certainly many differences between Megan and Betty, I believe Don Draper has once again married a woman-child.
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I'm sure she's dealt with worse over the years, and I doubt she would have ever rose to such a high level without dealing with such comments (regardless of the reality).
Edit: Regarding Meghan, I think she'll probably end up sleeping with one of the producers. Ironically, Don will not be the first to cheat.
As I said back on May 7:
Now, understand, that I think Megan is no Betty. Megan's biggest problem is that she's a little immature (which isn't really surprising given that she's only supposed to be about 26 years old), whereas Betty is wounded, evil and about one wire coat hanger away from Joan Crawford in "Mommy Dearest."
But, yeah, immaturity alone can take a real toll on a relationship even when you're not married to a guy like Don Draper.
I don't know if I'd go that far with Megan. She's a little immature but I don't see her doing that...unless she convinces herself that Don cheated on her and she does it for "revenge." She obviously worries about Don cheating a fair bit.
But, man, given Don's whole "whore aversion" (see above), if he DID find out that Megan slept with someone to advance her career I wouldn't want to be around. He might just kill her.
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Betty might try to take advantage of Don while Megan is away. If he's drunk enough he might "forget" about how much better Megan is for him than Betty. Drunk people forget things. and Betty is a master manipulator.
Although the way things are heading (only two more left) I don't see Betty coming back in a big way until next season. Unless the next two shows revolve around her somehow.
It's so great this is back on. It was tough last summer without Draper and Co.
Although the way things are heading (only two more left) I don't see Betty coming back in a big way until next season. Unless the next two shows revolve around her somehow.
It's so great this is back on. It was tough last summer without Draper and Co.
I'm talking about an attack on his happiness, not a fling. Betty is a pretty distorted human being. If her life is rocketing downward (weight issues, general depression, her husband's political life also spiraling south) she might decide to bring Don along for the ride, with a sloppy (or not!) attempt at targeting Megan with jealously. The interaction between the two when Betty picked the kids up from the apartment was subtle but intensely cringe worthy...
Betty: "It's a nice apartment."
Megan: "I think you've seen most of it."
Remember her intense and bottled anger when she'd found out that Megan and Don discussed Anna with Sally frankly?
Unless something is leading somewhere with Betty I'm surprised she hasn't been written out entirely this season. Weiner is great at surprises, so I hope for something fresh too.
Betty: "It's a nice apartment."
Megan: "I think you've seen most of it."
Remember her intense and bottled anger when she'd found out that Megan and Don discussed Anna with Sally frankly?
Unless something is leading somewhere with Betty I'm surprised she hasn't been written out entirely this season. Weiner is great at surprises, so I hope for something fresh too.
By "fling," I meant an affair, regardless of brevity or motivation.
OTOH, if, by "an attack on his happiness," you mean something like Betty trying to make comments to undermine Don's trust, yeah. I could easily see that. Though I'm not sure that Betty is particularly skilled at manipulating Don. If anything, I think it was the other way around, even when he was/is drunk.
In some ways I can't help but compare Don and Betty with Pete and Trudy. Don was a womanizer and betrayed Betty's trust. Pete (I think) would like to be something of a lady's man and will seize any chance to spice up what he sees as a dull life. He has certainly betrayed Trudy's trust.
We now know Betty is a hateful bitch and I don't feel much sympathy for her anymore in regard to Don's affairs. Could be on some level there was something about Betty that helped nudge him towards other women. Certainly the other women Don was usually attracted to were stronger in character and intellectually superior to Betty.
Megan seems to be a better person than Betty and more stimulating and interesting to Don, making it easier to resist the temptation to stray.
Pete is an asshole. The only one he was ever decent to was Peggy and there were even times he could be cruel to her. Granted we don't know much about Trudy, but from we've seen she is a much nicer person than Betty ever was and she deserves better than Pete. I feel bad she can't see Pete for the little shit he really is.
We now know Betty is a hateful bitch and I don't feel much sympathy for her anymore in regard to Don's affairs. Could be on some level there was something about Betty that helped nudge him towards other women. Certainly the other women Don was usually attracted to were stronger in character and intellectually superior to Betty.
Megan seems to be a better person than Betty and more stimulating and interesting to Don, making it easier to resist the temptation to stray.
Pete is an asshole. The only one he was ever decent to was Peggy and there were even times he could be cruel to her. Granted we don't know much about Trudy, but from we've seen she is a much nicer person than Betty ever was and she deserves better than Pete. I feel bad she can't see Pete for the little shit he really is.
I don't think it's fair to blame Betty for Don's cheating. I think Don is just a horndog who was raised by a philanderer father (to put it kindly) and has trouble resisting his base instincts even when he tries to do so. He deserves credit for trying with Megan but I think he's in denial if he thinks changing wives is all he needed to be "cured."
Pete, on the other hand, is just an asshole. Part of it is his desire to "be" Don but, really, he's just a petty little empty man who doesn't care about anyone but himself.
Pete, on the other hand, is just an asshole. Part of it is his desire to "be" Don but, really, he's just a petty little empty man who doesn't care about anyone but himself.
Mad Men is a smart show, so I wonder if they're going to bring up in future episodes how odd other people in the office and (especially) in other Madison Avenue agencies would find Joan's being raised to the partnership. Valuable as she is, she's support staff, and does not occupy would be normally be regarded as a partnership track position. Her being made a partner, and especially as she's a woman, would create a lot of buzz about how and why she got it (if Peggy had been made a partner, well, she's a little young, but that's a common and understandable career trajectory).
She would be going away for three months (12 weeks).
Well that's even worse.
I feel like in a healthy relationship, they'd both be okay with temporary separation for the purpose of a career, but they'd check with each other to make sure they were on the same page.