similar to Kosinski in TNG
Lt. Charlene Masters -- an explanation
- Thread starter Neopeius
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similar to Kosinski in TNG
Yes. Coon took uppers to write fast.
I think that, even from Spock, he kind of did that for effect.
Very interesting. If you had said red I bet it would have come up in this forum
Glad you chose blue.Would that be less risky than what they did by just traveling back?
"Risk is our business!"
Seriously, it would at least not involve years and years and years of travel.
I remember when I was a kid seeing an episode in which a jumpsuit-clad guy was referred to as a crewman. From that point on, I took it that there were non-officer-level crewman aboard who didn't wear the standard black pants and colored jerseys with stripes that the officers wore.
Now that I think of it, the salt monster was impersonating such a one when it went after Uhura.
Now that I think of it, the salt monster was impersonating such a one when it went after Uhura.
Sorry that this post turned out really long.
Memory Alpha has such a list. Given that the Enterprise visits a base from time to time and can take on new personnel, I have not been inclined to read it.
Why could they not have put Leslie in here instead of someone we had not met yet?
From looking at this post, what I notice is that almost every time that "officer" is used, it could mean everybody on the ship. The exception is Spock's line, which again, I think was for dramatic effect, even coming from a Vulcan
In the example I quoted, "my officers" cannot mean all this officers that there are, since we know there are others, so "my officers" must mean "some" of my officers, the complete list of which could be everybody on the ship.
Wow. I never thought of it that way, but I think it works. Of course "twelve like it" implies ships of the same or similar class, which has been talked about a huge amount elsewhere, and I would assume Starfleet to have more than twelve but less than thousands of ships in TOS. Your idea allows Starfleet to be any size without disturbing most plots.
Would that have to mean, though, that in your theory there are Enterprise-type vessels that are not in UESPA? I'm not sure I like that part. For a vessel like Reliant or, even better, Grissom, not to be UESPA seems acceptable, but odd, since they have mostly human crews, and Reliant resembles Enterprise architecture. Suppose the Defiant NCC-1764 was not in UESPA (totally making that up from its high number). I'm not sure the idea of a nearly-identical ship being in a different organization is a good idea.
I could see that to a degree. It also supports the "line/staff/engineering" uniform colors, instead of "command/science/engineering."
That being said, TOS being "all officers in actual fact" works less well for me than TOS being all officers "functionally." What I mean by this is that the cultural distinction between "officers" and "enlisted" does not seem to be present. (And the terms "officer" and "crewman" could be used for those who serve on the ship because of their job, not their rank). But I don't think to accept this we need to discount the references to what appear to be enlisted ranks.
In my mind, Yeoman Rand was the head Yeoman, which is why she worked for Kirk, with other Yeoman reporting under her. Tina Lawton is said to be "Charlie's age." So, taken literally, she is 17-18 years old, out of whatever the equivalent is to high-school, has had not time to go the "college-level-equivalent" Academy, but works on the ship because she has, somehow, earned that place, alongside older graduates who have the same role.
In TNG, O'brien and Wesley Crusher would fit in the same way. It would not need to be uncommon, but rather a different path with different goals, to service aboard a starship.
Why go the Academy? Presumably, there is some rank, CMDR or CPT, perhaps, that requires this training, and the choice is to do it young, or do it later. O'brien need never attend the Academy to serve, and even lead, but to command a ship, he would be required training he may never desire to take. A cadet might graduate with the rank of Ensign or LT, and be working alongside "enlisted" personnel in the same job, but 5-10 years later and a couple of ranks later, only the graduates would get to advance to CMDR.
This would explain several points:
How can there be officers who are still at the Academy, like LT Kirk?
-Since this training is not required to serve, but only to advance, some cadets may graduate with a rank based on how soon it is predicted that they will advance to the level where they would move above non-graduates. Kirk was a graduate student at this time, possibly, since Mitchell was his student.
Did McCoy attend the Academy, and yet not know some of its slang?
-I picked CMDR as a possible low point for graduation to make a difference, in part, to allow McCoy to not require Academy training to be a LTCDR in TOS, and because that lines up with extra training Deanna Troi needed, even as a graduate. He must have somehow met criteria to advance to CMDR during TAS or TMP, and eventually admiral.
What about terms like "Engineer Grade Four"?
-Though some argued that this reference is proof of "enlisted ranks" in TOS, I suggest, given that there is no insignia to indicate this grade, and that the jumpsuits are sometimes used by officers, this scene actually suggests that there is little to no functional difference between "officers" and "enlisted," in that Watkins is surprised a stranger knows his grade--How would she have known, only by looking at him that he wasn't an LT doing physical work, or an "Engineer Grade Three"?
Was "Acting Ensign" for a young person a made-up idea by Picard?
-Possibly it was unprecedented for someone that young, but Wesley's rank situation might be similar to Tina Lawton's. Perhaps Picard should have just made Wesley a Petty Officer, but Roddenberry probably would not have liked the use of that term at that time.
How would other "officers" know by looking at uniforms whether crew was "enlisted" or graduated "officers"?
-They wouldn't, and they would not need to care. If the job required an Academy graduate, that person would have the corresponding officer grade, otherwise it would not matter. Many crewmen on TOS might be called LT's or Ensigns onscreen because that is what their rank insignia said, but only with an actual crew manifest could we know who graduated the Academy. This would explain people accidentally calling O'brien LT, and solve the matter of how to tell "enlisted crewmen" from Ensign. Unless you are a personnel officer or a captain forming a crew, you usually don't.
Total side note, it would be great to get another 1-syllable word for the redshirt role in this system, to fit with "line" and "staff"
On that note, I'm not sure why they bothered with some odd insignia for him. If you are a civilian, in a uniform because it is needed for shipboard work, and the only one on board, you would be identified by the fact that you are the only person in your role.
The Maquis get different insignia because they have ranks put together for an unusual situation. On other ships, we likely would not see these enlisted rank insignia.
That still leaves the movie uniforms to fit into this system, but for at least one of them, the fact that the crew members are at the Academy but not yet graduates is a plot point...
Memory Alpha has such a list. Given that the Enterprise visits a base from time to time and can take on new personnel, I have not been inclined to read it.
Why could they not have put Leslie in here instead of someone we had not met yet?
From looking at this post, what I notice is that almost every time that "officer" is used, it could mean everybody on the ship. The exception is Spock's line, which again, I think was for dramatic effect, even coming from a Vulcan
In the example I quoted, "my officers" cannot mean all this officers that there are, since we know there are others, so "my officers" must mean "some" of my officers, the complete list of which could be everybody on the ship.Wow. I never thought of it that way, but I think it works. Of course "twelve like it" implies ships of the same or similar class, which has been talked about a huge amount elsewhere, and I would assume Starfleet to have more than twelve but less than thousands of ships in TOS. Your idea allows Starfleet to be any size without disturbing most plots.
Would that have to mean, though, that in your theory there are Enterprise-type vessels that are not in UESPA? I'm not sure I like that part. For a vessel like Reliant or, even better, Grissom, not to be UESPA seems acceptable, but odd, since they have mostly human crews, and Reliant resembles Enterprise architecture. Suppose the Defiant NCC-1764 was not in UESPA (totally making that up from its high number). I'm not sure the idea of a nearly-identical ship being in a different organization is a good idea.
I could see that to a degree. It also supports the "line/staff/engineering" uniform colors, instead of "command/science/engineering."
That being said, TOS being "all officers in actual fact" works less well for me than TOS being all officers "functionally." What I mean by this is that the cultural distinction between "officers" and "enlisted" does not seem to be present. (And the terms "officer" and "crewman" could be used for those who serve on the ship because of their job, not their rank). But I don't think to accept this we need to discount the references to what appear to be enlisted ranks.
In my mind, Yeoman Rand was the head Yeoman, which is why she worked for Kirk, with other Yeoman reporting under her. Tina Lawton is said to be "Charlie's age." So, taken literally, she is 17-18 years old, out of whatever the equivalent is to high-school, has had not time to go the "college-level-equivalent" Academy, but works on the ship because she has, somehow, earned that place, alongside older graduates who have the same role.
In TNG, O'brien and Wesley Crusher would fit in the same way. It would not need to be uncommon, but rather a different path with different goals, to service aboard a starship.
Why go the Academy? Presumably, there is some rank, CMDR or CPT, perhaps, that requires this training, and the choice is to do it young, or do it later. O'brien need never attend the Academy to serve, and even lead, but to command a ship, he would be required training he may never desire to take. A cadet might graduate with the rank of Ensign or LT, and be working alongside "enlisted" personnel in the same job, but 5-10 years later and a couple of ranks later, only the graduates would get to advance to CMDR.
This would explain several points:
How can there be officers who are still at the Academy, like LT Kirk?
-Since this training is not required to serve, but only to advance, some cadets may graduate with a rank based on how soon it is predicted that they will advance to the level where they would move above non-graduates. Kirk was a graduate student at this time, possibly, since Mitchell was his student.
Did McCoy attend the Academy, and yet not know some of its slang?
-I picked CMDR as a possible low point for graduation to make a difference, in part, to allow McCoy to not require Academy training to be a LTCDR in TOS, and because that lines up with extra training Deanna Troi needed, even as a graduate. He must have somehow met criteria to advance to CMDR during TAS or TMP, and eventually admiral.
What about terms like "Engineer Grade Four"?
-Though some argued that this reference is proof of "enlisted ranks" in TOS, I suggest, given that there is no insignia to indicate this grade, and that the jumpsuits are sometimes used by officers, this scene actually suggests that there is little to no functional difference between "officers" and "enlisted," in that Watkins is surprised a stranger knows his grade--How would she have known, only by looking at him that he wasn't an LT doing physical work, or an "Engineer Grade Three"?
Was "Acting Ensign" for a young person a made-up idea by Picard?
-Possibly it was unprecedented for someone that young, but Wesley's rank situation might be similar to Tina Lawton's. Perhaps Picard should have just made Wesley a Petty Officer, but Roddenberry probably would not have liked the use of that term at that time.
How would other "officers" know by looking at uniforms whether crew was "enlisted" or graduated "officers"?
-They wouldn't, and they would not need to care. If the job required an Academy graduate, that person would have the corresponding officer grade, otherwise it would not matter. Many crewmen on TOS might be called LT's or Ensigns onscreen because that is what their rank insignia said, but only with an actual crew manifest could we know who graduated the Academy. This would explain people accidentally calling O'brien LT, and solve the matter of how to tell "enlisted crewmen" from Ensign. Unless you are a personnel officer or a captain forming a crew, you usually don't.
Total side note, it would be great to get another 1-syllable word for the redshirt role in this system, to fit with "line" and "staff"
On that note, I'm not sure why they bothered with some odd insignia for him. If you are a civilian, in a uniform because it is needed for shipboard work, and the only one on board, you would be identified by the fact that you are the only person in your role.
The Maquis get different insignia because they have ranks put together for an unusual situation. On other ships, we likely would not see these enlisted rank insignia.
That still leaves the movie uniforms to fit into this system, but for at least one of them, the fact that the crew members are at the Academy but not yet graduates is a plot point...
I've already posted direct links to the unnamed non-officers list on Memory Alpha. I have yet to find one that has all the named officers on Memory Alpha which is why I asked. At this point it doesn't appear to exist. Care to post a link to it since you say MA has such a list?
From looking at this post, what I notice is that almost every time that "officer" is used, it could mean everybody on the ship. The exception is Spock's line, which again, I think was for dramatic effect, even coming from a Vulcan
Which we know it cannot be everybody on the ship since Spock calls out explicitly, "to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise" in "The Immunity Syndrome".
Basically we know there are officers and non-officers on the Enterprise.
I note that in another thread it was pointed out that in the present US Navy a 3rdc lass yeoman was two steps above a 1st class yeoman. Thus I like to assume that Tina already had 2 promotions and was still 17.
My interpretation of Kirk's career is that he graduated from the Academy as an ensign, served on the Republic, transferred to the Farragut, and returned to the Academy as an instructor and a Lieutenant where he met Mitchell. Kirk later returned to deep space duty and became a starship captain.
I'm afraid you got that mixed up, MA. According to this, Yeoman First Class is an E-6, who outranks Yeoman Third Class, who is an E-4:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman_(United_States_Navy)#Rate_structure
Here's the "crew manifest page." I'm sure it's not exhaustive as the crew can be rotated at bases, which is why I've never made an effort to read much more than its headers.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)_personnel
I'm suggesting that when Spock says "officers and crew" he is being dramatic. Or more precisely, he IS being technically correct that there are "officers by rank" and "crewmen by rank," but that the viewer and the average person serving in Starfleet would not need to know or care who, by rank, was an "officer," and who was "crew." This is because it is possible everyone on the "crew"--(that word being posting on a ship) is an" officer"--(that word being the role describing what people on that ship). Spock is being at bit redundant in saying officers and crew so that the record makes clear that he honors all 430 or so people with which he served.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)_personnel
I'm suggesting that when Spock says "officers and crew" he is being dramatic. Or more precisely, he IS being technically correct that there are "officers by rank" and "crewmen by rank," but that the viewer and the average person serving in Starfleet would not need to know or care who, by rank, was an "officer," and who was "crew." This is because it is possible everyone on the "crew"--(that word being posting on a ship) is an" officer"--(that word being the role describing what people on that ship). Spock is being at bit redundant in saying officers and crew so that the record makes clear that he honors all 430 or so people with which he served.
Well, I always figured that registry numbers worked something like this. When a new class of starship was commissioned a block of consecutive registry numbers was set aside for it. But if new ships of that class were needed later, they'd just be assigned numbers at random. Now, there may be problems with this notion, but it does conveniently explain both close numbers and ones that are widely divergent.
Thanks for the link!
Going by Memory Alpha's listing, then Spock is correct (and not being redundant) in that there are "officers" and "crew" that are not officers.
FWIW, looking at the link to the named crew between 2265-2270, here is the breakdown:
65% Named Officers with final rank Ensign or above, not including Captain and above
11% Named Non-officers with final ranks Technician, Yeoman
23% Named Unknown ranks with no final ranks or Crewman as final rank
Definitely not an all officer ship.
So, is it going to work, if we think of the enlisted as non-commissioned officers? Everybody serving aboard the starship is an officer, it's just that some are commissioned whereas others are not?
Today, in the US Navy, a yeoman third class (YN3/E-4) is a petty officer (NCO).
Today, in the US Navy, a yeoman third class (YN3/E-4) is a petty officer (NCO).
Is it not simpler to say that Lt Kirk was assigned as an instuctor at the Academy?
"Line" and "staff" are not particularly useful in this discussion, since officers of all divisions seem to be able to qualify to be in line of command.
If all the crew were in fact officers, it would be obvious that he was including everyone; there would be no need for clarification. I don't think that Spock would be so discourteous as to not acknowledge "officer" status to anyone who had earned it.
I'd say it works fine, but the whole point of this line of discussion, it seems to me, has been to get the onscreen OS to jibe with TMOST, and TMOST makes its case pretty clear that all Enterprise personnel are what we would consider to be commissioned officers.
P. 209:
Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is only semimilitary. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer.
Reference is occasionally made to "the crew," in which case it is a generalized statement meant to include everyone aboard the ship. A reference to "senior officers" would refer to a much smaller, specific group of the crew members.
Reference is occasionally made to "the crew," in which case it is a generalized statement meant to include everyone aboard the ship. A reference to "senior officers" would refer to a much smaller, specific group of the crew members.
Right.
Well, it's been conclusively proven that jibing to that extent is impossible without the ridiculous assumption that words said on screen mean something different in-universe than what they mean today in the real world. (And it would be a ridiculous assumption, because the whole point of dialog on screen is to convey information to the viewing audience.)
Kirk has been shown as being both a cadet, midshipman, and one can imagine outside of the Kelvin timeline later an ensign but i don't think it was ever shown he was all three at the same time. But he might have been a cadet and midshipman at the same time. We don't know much about Preston. He was a cadet and a midshipman at the same time.
Come on. They whip up outfits for a landing party in no time flat but can't make a uniform for a temp.
He wanted a little of both so he could get away with the soldier stuff in space but then stand on a pedestal and say Starfleet wasn't military because, you know, the future and people get along 300 years from now.
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