Powerful, risky, political message for a tucked-away streaming cartoon. Most scenes are silly, I agree, but you seemed to have picked one of the few that have a relevant message to give. You have to see that, right? It has nothing to do with Landru.
Lower Decks renewed for season 3
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Powerful, risky, political message for a tucked-away streaming cartoon. Most scenes are silly, I agree, but you seemed to have picked one of the few that have a relevant message to give. You have to see that, right? It has nothing to do with Landru.
Oh, absolutely. It’s really about the Federation and the way it continues to insert itself into some situations but not others, paying lip service to high values without proper follow-through. I mean, it’s more than a hundred years later and Beta III still isn’t a member, or Landru couldn’t have been rebuilt right down to the Red Hour and purchase of a new scythe without someone official noticing, so all Freeman could do apparently is arrive too late, invoke the Kirk Precedent, override the Prime Directive again, put up police tape and a sign and let Mariner hand out art supplies.
What does this mean for the future of Beta III? Hopefully Freeman will argue that it needs to be put on the path to membership, with ongoing Starfleet presence similar to that on DS9. But that is not in the cards at least for the time being, unfortunately, as we’re already heading into the PIC era and an inward-looking union.
(You’re sure I’m not taking this too seriously?)
I mean, it was already broken.
Yes, but only to the point of enabling last-minute interference as in this particular incident. The dialogue in this episode specifically confirms that it prohibits continuous monitoring of Beta III.
Yep. And this point is made in multiple occasions trough the series.
I don’t see a problem with this specifically: they were clearly at a technological level that put warp travel (which is a requisite for membership) at least a century in the future, probably more.
Sounds like you weren't paying attention to the entire episode.
The whole point of the conversation between Mariner and her mum, at the end of "No Small Parts", is that a single act by Starfleet won't necessarily have a lasting effect on an entire society. Same can be said about Starfleet not checking up on Khan and his people from time to time, or making sure that the reforms implemented by Kirk on the Gangster Planet, the Nazi Planet or the Cloud Minders planet actually have a lasting effect. Freeman's criticism of Starfleet policy is that there isn't any follow up to many of these "first contact" missions, hence the importance of "second contact" missions. At least, that's the implication. Meanwhile, Mariner thinks that the wheels of the Federation bureaucracy tends to be too slow in responding to the needs of the people in mist need of support, hence why she tends to be subversive in her duties (example: giving out art supplies to the children of Beta III). So, it's not simply "Stop praying to a computer".
Yes, all this is done via a comedic cartoon, but, as I always like to say, based on the novelization of TMP, what we see on television is an exaggerated version of real events, which I think is the best way of looking at LD.
Starfleet has a long history of just not talking to planets for decades and more. So, none of this sounds particularly new in terms of their policy or procedures.
I would say at least 3-5 centuries more. Not only was their technological development essentially mid-18th century...but they had stagnated as a culture for a very long time. You don't just cold-crank that sucker up. It will take a long time for them to understand how to create and innovate effectively again.
I don’t see how. If anything, you give a forced interpretation of what happened after a number of TOS episodes and therefore accept this Lower Decks situation as actual cynicism in the show as opposed to altering the expected epilogues for parody.
Kirk’s interventions were never implied to be ephemeral. “Sociologist Lindstrom is remaining behind with a party of experts who will help restore the planet's culture to a human form.” Since this is Star Trek and not a dystopian franchise where Kirk would be the lone voice of progress and justice, the implication was that the Federation would retain a discreet presence over the following decades or even centuries, helping the inhabitants evolve and restore their culture (which in addition to the Landru computer included quite a bit of advanced tech as well as knowledge of alien visitors), while also trying not to interfere more than absolutely necessary. The Cerritos might’ve been expected to find some kind of an orbital station, or alternatively a local embassy fully integrated into the surroundings, with a small, rotating staff that would increase in size as the society develops closer to those in the Federation.
Again, I don’t see who would watch those episodes and believe that Kirk’s interventions only had temporary effects. This is Star Trek. Only Khan’s situation is tricky: either Kirk swore everyone to secrecy (unlikely) or the Federation agreed with him and established a policy of no contact because of the dangers involved (perhaps in line with the ban on genetic engineering). But the default assumption is never a cynical lack of follow-through followed by surprise beam-downs and blatant, last-minute band-aids like putting up police tape around Landru. Starfleet feels at liberty to do that even as it cannot establish discreet monitoring?
I don’t see where such cynicism would’ve come from. Beta III was supposed to have long-term contact so that everyone could eventually live long and prosper. Instead, we’re going to throw away a century of expected progress so that Lower Decks can have fun with Landru for a few minutes? Or do we just accept it as part of the parody?
It looked like going through the motions, as did that entire intervention. The whole underdog premise of the show is cynical and forced, instead of simply looking for humor in classic Bermanverse situations while also playing them entirely straight.
That was never the way the official Star Trek: Encyclopedia looked at the franchise. Whatever happened, happened, and would be written up as-is. I don’t see two versions of events in the future: they’ll either be referenced or not.
You are now moving the goalposts here, though.
Your original complaint was
Your original complaint was
now you seem to agree that in LDS there are indeed season-encompassing threads, but you don’t agree with the vision those threads presents. Which is of course totally in your right, but obviously you can’t say this and also that LDS is basically a gags-based cartoon with no complexity and carelessly built.
I don’t see any “season-encompassing threads”, just a forced premise with situations forced for “comedy” (such as the crew not knowing that Mariner’s mother is the captain). There is no complexity in abandoning the premise of the Bermanverse and positing a lopsided situation where everyone is the exception to the rule, while the rule is apparently valid only on the Enterprise. Besides, the cynical episodes have been done on PIC, DS9 and late TNG: why make them into a series that is supposed to be fun and upbeat?
What I would’ve done instead is written to the Roddenberry Box and looked for comedy in taking certain elements to their entirely logical, in-continuity implications, like the whole money in the Federation issue. How many situations in TNG S1 are funny or almost funny even if they weren’t supposed to be? There are nooks and crannies to be mined all over, so why posit something like the idea that Kirk’s interventions weren’t transformative in the long term? Beta III could’ve basically become a 21st-century Earth, a way for careful visitors to experience Earth’s past culture first-hand.
What I would’ve done instead is written to the Roddenberry Box and looked for comedy in taking certain elements to their entirely logical, in-continuity implications, like the whole money in the Federation issue. How many situations in TNG S1 are funny or almost funny even if they weren’t supposed to be? There are nooks and crannies to be mined all over, so why posit something like the idea that Kirk’s interventions weren’t transformative in the long term? Beta III could’ve basically become a 21st-century Earth, a way for careful visitors to experience Earth’s past culture first-hand.
And yet "Memory Alpha" does include notes (called Apocrypha) that does reference contradictory references to the franchise, including the Encyclopedia. And just because I stated that the events depicted are exaggerations (which is lifted directly from James Kirk's own words in the TMP novelization), that's not the same thing as saying said events are not "true". But, suit yourself...
“Apocrypha” are not normally designed to be exaggerated or alternate versions of events: they simply can become that as they are overridden by the canon, but tie-ins are created in accordance with the canon as it existed to that point. Lower Decks is actually canon and Memory Alpha reports the events as seen (what else could it do as a wiki?)
I just said that I don’t see two versions of events evolving, a “literal” and an “exaggerated” version. How would an encyclopedia “de-exaggerate” a bit of canon? The TMP novelization is just one novelization, not some kind of a continuity touchstone.
Same with the Star Trek Encyclopedia.
Expected progress and long-term contact are loaded terms. "Enlightened" nations half-ass stuff all the time. We've been in the Middle East for decades, have conditions there improved much - or have we even made things worse in many cases?
If the original episode with Beta III was an allegory of how turning society over to computer control is bad (or the idea of The Purge is bad, given those who seem to fetishize it these days), then we can put up with further use of it as allegory for seeing the job through and not expecting that cultures will always progress. Especially when our own are in serious danger of backsliding.
You may see that as cynicism, but the LDS ep is pointing out that you can't just follow the rules and apply boilerplate solutions. If you want a society to improve, you may need to tailor solutions to it and think outside the regs.
I'd like to see them tackle that idea that DS9 had but never did for the TOS anniversary, where they went back to Sigma Iotia II, and intead of them imitating 1920s gangsters, they were now imitating Starfleet, or at least the Enterprise crew.
I think that would work better for Lower Decks then it would have DS9.
I think that would work better for Lower Decks then it would have DS9.
could be fun.
There is a TNG comic that picked up on that but it was less than successful in my opinion.
There was a comic in IDW's TOS Year Five series that did something similar, in just a few years Sigma Iotia had turned into a Federation imitation. And I think the idea that they were now based on Starfleet/the Enterprise has also been done in a few novels. Honestly, at this point, they idea's been done and I really don't see the need for a Lower Decks episode devoted to it. Maybe as an opening scene joke like the bit with Landru in the season finale I'd be okay with.
I am glad we will have at least two more seasons. I love that series and the multiple allusions to other series. I've just noticed, there's even a reference to Enterprise with the multi-aging guy, like Daniels in Storm Front, although there's also Chak in Shattered, but it's more apparent in Enterprise.
Riker also references his enterprise holodeck simulation in the season 1 finale.
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