Spoilers Lower Decks and The Novelverse

[Leto_II]

So was this episode today (“Crisis Point II: Paradoxum”) the very first onscreen confirmation we’ve gotten that Kirk’s farm seen in Star Trek: Generations was located in Idaho (just as the novels have asserted for decades now)?

Also, we now have canonical confirmation that the TOS movie-era configuration of the “monster maroon” uniforms (featuring the turtleneck-undershirt) was evidently in service until at least 2341, although see do see the later turtleneckless variant on young Picard way back in 2327 (TNG: “Tapestry”).

EDIT: OK, just checked the movie’s transcript, and apparently Kirk does mention to Picard that his farm is indeed located in Idaho (formerly belonging to his uncle). Ah, well.

 

[Enterprise1701]

The week beforehand, in episode 3.07 "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption", Peanut Hamper confidently believed the Titan crew would respect an A.I. Peanut Hamper is presumably referring to Titan's respected reputation as a Starfleet warship, as depicted in Lower Decks seasons 1 and 2, but it could also be a sly reference by the writers to the vast species diversity in the novel depiction, especially the 2009 debut of Second-Gen White-Blue in Synthesis.

 

[The Wormhole]

The week beforehand, in episode 3.07 "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption", Peanut Hamper confidently believed the Titan crew would respect an A.I. Peanut Hamper is presumably referring to Titan's respected reputation as a Starfleet warship, as depicted in Lower Decks seasons 1 and 2, but it could also be a sly reference by the writers to the vast species diversity in the novel depiction, especially the 2009 debut of Second-Gen White-Blue in Synthesis.

I just assumed Peanut Hamper knew the Titan was commanded by Riker, someone who is known to have served with an android. And not just any android, but the one responsible for recognizing Exocomps are sentient thus granting them the rights they now enjoy.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I just assumed Peanut Hamper knew the Titan was commanded by Riker, someone who is known to have served with an android. And not just any android, but the one responsible for recognizing Exocomps are sentient thus granting them the rights they now enjoy.

I think its just Peanut Hamper being passive aggressive when she's not being actually aggressive.

I do wonder if Peanut Hamper being sent to the Daystrom Institute is a sign that Starfleet is reevaluating their decision that she and the other Exocomps are sentient, though. Their "rack of Evil AI" strikes me as something you do for malfunctioning hardware and not actually imprisoned sapient beings.

 

[Christopher]

I do wonder if Peanut Hamper being sent to the Daystrom Institute is a sign that Starfleet is reevaluating their decision that she and the other Exocomps are sentient, though. Their "rack of Evil AI" strikes me as something you do for malfunctioning hardware and not actually imprisoned sapient beings.

I'll say the same thing I said in response to you suggesting this on Tor.com -- the sign on the vault says "Self-Aware Megalomaniacal Computer Storage." Presumably they’re all sentient, and that is their prison. Although that’s hard to reconcile with Picard saying they still haven’t cracked android sentience decades later, even though Agnes Jurati worked out of the exact same building where the vault is.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'll say the same thing I said in response to you suggesting this on Tor.com -- the sign on the vault says "Self-Aware Megalomaniacal Computer Storage." Presumably they’re all sentient, and that is their prison. Although that’s hard to reconcile with Picard saying they still haven’t cracked android sentience decades later, even though Agnes Jurati worked out of the exact same building where the vault is.

Well, Agnes did crack android sentience. It's just Bruce Maddox ran off with all of their research.

Fair enough, though I point out that it seems an excessive sentence for Peanut Hamper. Then again, I wonder how many people died for her "redemption."

 

[Christopher]

Well, Agnes did crack android sentience. It's just Bruce Maddox ran off with all of their research.

The point is, if there are already so many self-aware artilects in 2381, then it shouldn't even need to be "cracked" in the 2390s. Trek is too inconsistent about A.I. sentience, treating androids, holograms, and box-on-a-shelf computers as entirely separate categories. The outer appearance should be irrelevant to the question of the mind's sophistication. If you can create a sentient hologram just by giving a computer vague instructions or letting an EMH run unusually long, then you should just be able to download that hologram's software into an android body and boom, who needs a positronic brain?

 

[Charles Phipps]

The point is, if there are already so many self-aware artilects in 2381, then it shouldn't even need to be "cracked" in the 2390s. Trek is too inconsistent about A.I. sentience, treating androids, holograms, and box-on-a-shelf computers as entirely separate categories. The outer appearance should be irrelevant to the question of the mind's sophistication. If you can create a sentient hologram just by giving a computer vague instructions or letting an EMH run unusually long, then you should just be able to download that hologram's software into an android body and boom, who needs a positronic brain?

I suppose that gets into the "hard problem" of consciousness and whether or not the hardware is as important as the software. It may not be the software alone that dictates consciousness but the medium in which it is transferred--which is something many people debate in RL about whether true AI is possible on a computer system. Whether this is true in Star Trek and there's just something inherently more likely to be conscious about holograms (which often function like robots made of light as opposed to interfaces for the computer) versus computer systems is the case.

Also, a positronic brain versus regular computers.

A friend of mine, Michael Suttkus again, pointed out you'd have to have more vacuum tubes than the entirety of Earth to do the work of a cellphone. Maybe it's something similar with the way data is processed with the various types of computers. It may also be a Harlan Ellison "I have no mouth but I must scream" situation the Daystrom Institute is trying to avoid.

AM is implied to be totally insane due to the fact that his computer system makes him all-aware but also possessed of no body of sensations. Perhaps they see all of the AI they've accumulated as deranged and evil because of an inherit flaw in their hardware (which is more bio-chauvinism but that doesn't mean the Federation doesn't suffer it).

 

[Christopher]

I suppose that gets into the "hard problem" of consciousness and whether or not the hardware is as important as the software. It may not be the software alone that dictates consciousness but the medium in which it is transferred--which is something many people debate in RL about whether true AI is possible on a computer system. Whether this is true in Star Trek and there's just something inherently more likely to be conscious about holograms (which often function like robots made of light as opposed to interfaces for the computer) versus computer systems is the case.

I don't buy that there's a distinction. A hologram is just an animated avatar. The consciousness controlling it resides within a computer and exists even when the holographic avatar doesn't. The proof: Moriarty and the Countess were able to remain conscious and active within the portable mainframe they were downloaded into at the end of "Ship in a Bottle." Also, the Voyager EMH was able to retain his identity within Seven of Nine's neural implants, without having a holographic body to control. If the EMH could be so easily transferred between the sickbay computer, the holodeck computer, the mobile emitter, Seven's implants, etc. with no alteration in his sentience or personality, then the platform clearly makes no difference and there's no logical reason he couldn't be just as easily downloaded into an android body.

Also, a positronic brain versus regular computers.

Yes, but that's exactly the point. If true sentience can be more easily achieved with conventional computers, why even treat positronic brains like some holy grail? It seems like it's just a harder way of doing something that's already been achieved more easily, which contradicts the way TNG and PIC treated positronics as the exclusive but incredibly difficult way to achieve artificial sapience.

 

[mithril]

I've generally figured that the building full of evil AI is part of the fallout from Data and the voyager EMH's legal battles over personhood.. sure you could probably crack sentient AI studying those evil ones (assuming you could solve the evil aspect) but to do it you would have to dismantle them.. with no assurance that the AI would survive. Data's trial set a precedent that AI recognized as sentient have the right to choose if they will accept such experimentation and the risk of being killed it carries. Because they are being recognized as sentients. Which by extention also gives them the same sort of protections from being executed or having their minds and memories forceably altered that organic sentience gets in the federation.
Thus the AI Prison.

The EMH didn't get sentient rights in Voy because at the time the sentience of hologram programs like himself wasn't established, which is also why the synths didn't get the same protections Data got. (as they copied a Soong type's body but not mind, and as a result were not self aware even to the level B4 was.)

 

[F. King Daniel]

Having all the evil AI in one small confined space is just ASKING for trouble. Left your wifi hotspot on? World ends.

 

[Christopher]

Having all the evil AI in one small confined space is just ASKING for trouble.

No more so than having all of Gotham's supervillains locked up together in Arkham Asyl... uhh... sorry, bad example.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I really would love a Lower Decks novel to be done in a SLIGHTLY more serious/coherent manner than the show.

I think KRAD or Bennett both have really good comic skills that would translate well to the story plus the obviously needed continuity knowledge.

Mind you, they could never go in the weird zone I'd love them to like, "The gang is transported to the LitVerse and have to deal with Picard's marriage, the Borg being gone, and the Typhon Pact."

"Why would they name themselves after a Greek monster?"

"I dunno, why are Romulans so Roman?"

"What's a Rome?"

"It's an old Earth culture that was very Romulan."

"There's a Roman planet Kirk visited that also has one of Earth's religions. Very weird."

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Having all the evil AI in one small confined space is just ASKING for trouble. Left your wifi hotspot on? World ends.

Maybe they’re expecting that, with the ego most of these AI tend to have, they’ll never actually manage to cooperate long enough to even unlock the door.

Which, honestly, does not seem that unlikely a reality...

 

[Christopher]

I noticed an inconsistency between the LD season 3 finale and the novel The Last Best Hope. The novel said that Picard didn't get promoted to admiral until he took command of the Romulan relocation fleet in 2382. But LD referred to "Admiral Picard" in today's episode, and despite the conclusions Memory Alpha's editors have jumped to, it's only in 2381, both according to the producers and science advisor on Twitter, and according to last week's episode, which was explicitly 17 years after TNG: "Symbiosis" (2364).

 

[Tuskin38]

and despite the conclusions Memory Alpha's editors have jumped to, it's only in 2381, both according to the producers and science advisor on Twitter, and according to last week's episode, which was explicitly 17 years after TNG: "Symbiosis" (2364).

M-A editors changed it to 2381 after '17 years after' reference last week.

They don't consider producer comments 'canon' when contradicted by in-show dialogue, which previous episodes did.

 

[Christopher]

They don't consider producer comments 'canon' when contradicted by in-show dialogue, which previous episodes did.

Yeah, but they had no basis for assuming it was 2382 when the stardates were still consistent with 2381. So it was pretty hypocritical for them to pretend they're riding on "canon" when they were directly contradicting the canonical evidence.


Anyway, I misspoke -- it was 2381 when Picard took promotion to admiral, though I got the sense from the novel that it was later in the year than this.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, but they had no basis for assuming it was 2382 when the stardates were still consistent with 2381. So it was pretty hypocritical for them to pretend they're riding on "canon" when they were directly contradicting the canonical evidence.

So basically, Memory Alpha were up to their usual tricks.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah, but they had no basis for assuming it was 2382

I mean there was a ton of evidence in dialogue and other things.

 

[Christopher]

I mean there was a ton of evidence in dialogue and other things.

Like what?