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Lost 6x16: "What They Died For"

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    77
If Kate was eliminated because she became a mother, what about Sun? Even Jin...
Yes, like so many thing in this season you initially buy it then with a little scrutiny it collapses. The way Jacob made it sound was that it really didn't matter who was the Protector--Kate was marked off but that really didn't matter-"you want the job it is yours". So it seems like this whole social experiment to weed out people was pointless. If there is no criteria which seems to be the case just look at how Jacob got the job then he didn't need to bring everyone here and he could have saved Jin/Sun and everyone else that died. I bought him staying out of things as he was portrayed as a detached observer only concerned with a replacement and if you failed whatever test he was using to mark you off the list he didn't care what happened to you but this episode seems to rewrite him as more emotionally involved and if so he should have intervened like with stopping the detonation of the TNT at Black Rock. It seems the rules are extremely abitrary. It also wasn't clear how a Protector quits. If you are an immortal you can always be the Protector. The impression I got from Jacob and Mother was they were tired of being Protectors and just wanted to die.

But it was totally consistent that Jack would spare everyone else in the group the difficult decision to become Protector and volunteer himself. And going back to season one with his refrain of Live Together, Die Alone I definitely see the remaining survivors staying with him as his form of the Others. Also Jack always struggled with saving everybody and now as Protector he has the weight of all life on his shoulders.

Also how did Jacob become solid again and interact with them in the physical world?
 
Excellent episode, can't believe it will all be over this Sunday. Kind of depressing when you think of what shows are left, most of them can't hold a candle to Lost. And from what I've seen of the new shows on the networks' schedule I don't think we're going to get another new show as engaging as this one for a while.

BTW Locke/The Monster really terrified me in this episode. He seems so unbeatable and vicious.
 
If Kate was eliminated because she became a mother, what about Sun? Even Jin...
Yes, like so many thing in this season you initially buy it then with a little scrutiny it collapses.

I don't necessarily think so. I think in Kate's case, becoming a mother gave her life a purpose, and she was finally happy and willing/able to settle down. It's not that mothers can't be candidates. It's that Kate becoming a mother gave her something else to live for.
 
If Kate was eliminated because she became a mother, what about Sun? Even Jin...
Yes, like so many thing in this season you initially buy it then with a little scrutiny it collapses.

I don't necessarily think so. I think in Kate's case, becoming a mother gave her life a purpose, and she was finally happy and willing/able to settle down. It's not that mothers can't be candidates. It's that Kate becoming a mother gave her something else to live for.

And Kwon was probably Jin.
 
Wow. Great episode. Clearly a set-up episode but still very good. It's killing me that I don't know what Desmond knows.........he's obviously the key. And I don't buy that Ben has gone Dark or self-perservey........I think he wanted to stop Widmore from telling Locke anything useful. And I think he will betray Flocke when it matters most.

Flocke wants to destroy the island? I guess I need to understand what the island actually is before I have an opinion on that. Is Richard dead? I think he might be, though I could see him still being alive as well.

Overall, excellent episode.

9.5/10
 
We never learned who was the Man who was in charge of the Lamp Post and finding the island? Or what the US military was doing on the island in the 50s? Was it to them just a proving ground for nukes? What about Alvar Hanso? Dharma? Ann Arbor mentioned last season? Why did they demand Paul's body last season after Amy's run in and shotting of Others?

This was all stuff raised in the show so I guess you can't be faulted for wanting answers to these questions. But really, answers to those questions belong in a show about the island. And I think we can look back now and say that while the island offered up cool weirdness every week, it's really a story about the passengers of Oceanic 815.

Why was the US military on the island? Well, there's maybe one or two people still alive who even know they were there, and even then they're only fuzzy on it. So why bring it up? Well, they left a nuke. THAT matters to everyone involved. Are they curious about why it's there? Maybe, but nobody's around to tell them. All that matters is that there's a bomb kicking around. That's immediately relevant to them.

I'll admit part of me called shenanigans when Lindelof and Cuse said they were only interested in answering Qs that mattered to the characters. But I get it now. The Island may have been around literally forever for all we know. It's mysterious. There has been interesting shit going on there a long time. A lot of that doesn't figure into the 815 stories.

"It only ends once." THAT'S what we're seeing. All the stuff before only matters if it figures into that story.

We're building up to a big conflict. I would call bullshit if Jack started asking questions about food drops, Hanso or statues.

YMMV, clearly.
 
I thought it was established in one of the mobisodes/games/pop-up video episodes that the food drops where being orchestrated by Eloise Hawking out of the Lamp Post?
 
We never learned who was the Man who was in charge of the Lamp Post and finding the island? Or what the US military was doing on the island in the 50s? Was it to them just a proving ground for nukes? What about Alvar Hanso? Dharma? Ann Arbor mentioned last season? Why did they demand Paul's body last season after Amy's run in and shotting of Others?

This was all stuff raised in the show so I guess you can't be faulted for wanting answers to these questions. But really, answers to those questions belong in a show about the island. And I think we can look back now and say that while the island offered up cool weirdness every week, it's really a story about the passengers of Oceanic 815.
I've said it a thousand times--if writers like Ron Moore, Tim Kring or Lindeloff/Cuse don't want to be saddled with a complicated mythology there is a simple solution--do not include it. Just do their pure character-driven show.

L/C want to say that this show is a story about the 815 passengers but the mysteries, questions, mythology was a significant focus of the series and as a viewer if I'm led to believe that the writers are giving it a 100% and it isn't there as a MacGuffin and I spend time on it it better go somewhere.....and it did up to a point--Seasons 3-5 was heavily Plot/Mythology. You can't watch those episodes and not see a ton of nothing but exposition, character reactions, twists, cliffhangers, dovetailing threads, insight into Widmore, Ben, Eloise, Dharma, freighter folk, Temples, time travel, timelines, history of when Juliet came or the Purge occurred or when Ben was born or the name of the Dharma sub or seeing backs of statues or islands disappearing or wheels being turned or how do they become the Oceanic Six or what is Michael up to on the freighter etc etc etc.

The character stuff is there but in a secondary way. It was about advancing plot, getting people into place. And with the brilliant way they did so in the last three seasons pulling together a myriad of seemingly disconnected pieces from four seasons and tying them together in surprising but in hindsight very plausible ways. I mean they even addressed how Dharma located the island and I thought that would never be addressed so it gave me hope the writers would continue like they had been to continue to check off questions *they* raised and continue to have stuff be tied off in the elegant style of S3-5.

So if they want to do character stuff I'm not certain this was the best venue for it. With so much going on LoST never really had the opportunity to give depth to a lot of things character-wise. We got a tiny sliver but not the kind of development that a series with fewer characters and storylines would get.

Sun/Jin's deaths had no build up, their deaths were plot points as was Sayid's. What character arc did Claire have or Sayid? Apparently according to L/C the whole point of evil Sayid was to say if he is told he is a good guy he is.
What was so riveting about Kate? Jin? Hurley? this season.
Why was the US military on the island? Well, there's maybe one or two people still alive who even know they were there, and even then they're only fuzzy on it. So why bring it up? Well, they left a nuke. THAT matters to everyone involved. Are they curious about why it's there? Maybe, but nobody's around to tell them. All that matters is that there's a bomb kicking around. That's immediately relevant to them.
Yet they made a point in "316" for the camera to zoom in on a military surveillance photo of the island. I just thought there would be more to it.
We're building up to a big conflict. I would call bullshit if Jack started asking questions about food drops, Hanso or statues.

YMMV, clearly.
But S3-5 demonstrated how you could go about addressing questions in interesting and natural ways that are an organic outgrowth of the story being told. I don't see why this couldn't happen here. I'd rather have focused on these other things than what we got this season with the boring alternate flashes and the drawn out scenes week after week of Smokey assembling his team or the dull time at the Temple with the most boring Others we've ever encountered

And as far as building to a big conflict--the way the build up has been handled by L/C this season hasn't been very exciting or graceful. They just stumbled into the finale with the idea Smokey is going to destroy it. Compare that to how it was handled with the excitement in season four surrounding the Six leaving and the assault on the island by Keamey's commandos. Or season five with all the chaos falling around them.
I thought it was established in one of the mobisodes/games/pop-up video episodes that the food drops where being orchestrated by Eloise Hawking out of the Lamp Post?
I don't do extraneous material. It should be included onscreen. I shouldn't have to watch a podcast, read an interview to have the writers tell me, watch a webisode, read a comic online etc. If so the writers aren't doing a good job. Moore had this bad habit too on nBSG

What if I didn't have a computer or internet access--how would I know this.
 
I thought it was established in one of the mobisodes/games/pop-up video episodes that the food drops where being orchestrated by Eloise Hawking out of the Lamp Post?

Well saying it's "established" is tricky. The producers have said the pop-ups don't necessarily count since they're written by network folks and not the writing staff.

It's not as convoluted as Trek or Star Wars canon but there's a lot of stuff out there from ABC that doesn't officially count.
 
And I think we can look back now and say that while the island offered up cool weirdness every week, it's really a story about the passengers of Oceanic 815.

Agreed. All those other little mysteries were fun at the time, but by this point it's really just the ultimate fate of the main characters I'm interested in. And I suspect it's that way for the vast majority of viewers too.

As for this episode, wow. I didn't expect it to be nearly this huge and eventful. In any other year, this could have served as the season finale, but they were just getting STARTED! lol
 
Great. More "a wizard did it" with a side of "oh, none of the names and crossing them out mattered; I was just doing it for shits and giggles."

Fantastic.
 
Re: startrekwatcher,

I'd go and multiquote you but I'm on my Blackberry and it doesn't like that so bear with my perhaps oversimplified response to your post.

The bottom line is that this is the story L/C wanted to tell. It seems like you're calling bullshit on the fact that they aren't continuing to address mythology in the organic manner they did in S3-5. Just like Lost, you're wrong and you're right and it's shades of grey.

They aren't picking up cool story tangents you've been wondering about for ages because they've presumably told all the stories they want to about that stuff. I found that stuff very cool, just like you did. But realistically, you have to start whittling the stick down to a point at some time. So, for better or worse, this is what the story is and we need some fucking focus going forward.

I will however agree that they've been glossing over deaths this year. They've always done this. It sucks and I wish they wouldn't. I'll add the caveat that they could change all that with the finale. Who knows what they're gonna do with the Sideways?

The deaths I WILL defend are Sun's and Jin's. Sucks to see them go but when you look at Jack's eyes at the end of "The Candidate" you really understand his vendetta with The Man in Black and you get why he didn't wring his hands too much when he offered himself up to Jacob. They didn't get a ton of mourning but they kicked Jack in the ass. Death justified.
 
This episode was good, much better than last week's ep.

It was the very definition of setup. But I'm glad that things are finally moving. I liked that they dealt with who would be replacing Jacob this week, getting it out of the way of the series finale. I doubt any of us was surprised that Jack was going to be the new Jacob. Not sure about what is going on with Ben, but I will be very surprised if he makes it out of the series finale alive after all the evil things he has done.

Kudos to Terry O'Quinn for his amazing performance this season. He plays two very different people very convincingly.

If Richard is really dead then I will be disappointed. He died like a punk. I was hoping that at least he would whisper his wife's name before biting it, but the death was a blink and you'll miss it moment. Charles Widmore's death was very anticlimactic too. How many of us could have predicted that the evil mastermind from season four would die while locked up in a closet? But at least it was Ben who shot him.

Thank Lucifer, Mark Pellegrino got the chance to play Jacob one more time after last week's episode. He deserved to go out with good episode instead of last week's horrible Across the Sea.
 
Re: startrekwatcher,

The bottom line is that this is the story L/C wanted to tell.
And that is their right to do--tell the story they want. And as a viewer it is my right to criticize or take issue with it.
It seems like you're calling bullshit on the fact that they aren't continuing to address mythology in the organic manner they did in S3-5. Just like Lost, you're wrong and you're right and it's shades of grey.
I'm saying I think season 6 could have been better and part of it has to do with the fact that instead of the drawn out storyline we got we could have been treated to another season that pulls together pieces and continued folding things into one another until it all led to the Big Moment 6 years in the making--whatever that is to be.
They aren't picking up cool story tangents you've been wondering about for ages because they've presumably told all the stories they want to about that stuff. I found that stuff very cool, just like you did. But realistically, you have to start whittling the stick down to a point at some time.
Then as writers don't let your grasp exceed your reach storywise to where you have all these unused pieces of the story just piled over in the corner and you do nothing with them. In this instance, the story got away from L/C.
 
Great. More "a wizard did it" with a side of "oh, none of the names and crossing them out mattered; I was just doing it for shits and giggles."

Fantastic.

*sigh* I'll bite.

We learned last week that Jacob got just as screwed as anyone else on the show, so why is his trying to protect Kate (and by extension Aaron) so ridiculously out of character?

He gave her a choice, but he wasn't seriously going to hold her to anything like the rest of them.

And yeah, I guess he gave them all the chance to refuse, but it wasn't really a choice, was it? This episode makes "Across The Sea" kick even more ass. Jacob tried to do the right thing, but he basically did the same thing to the candidates that Mother did to him. Did he realize it? I dunno, cool character stuff.
 
Average. C.

Seriously not many answers at all in this episode.
Honestly, answers or not, it wasn't that big of a deal in this ep. Sure, answers are nice and all but this ep was more about setting up for the finale on sunday. Now, whether we get the answers we want or not at that point in time is yet to be seen.

Overall I quite enjoyed this episode. I'd give it an excellent.
 
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And that is their right to do--tell the story they want. And as a viewer it is my right to criticize or take issue with it.

Of course it is. And like this episode, there's going to be all kinds of debate about the finale.

I think you're expecting things of the show that it never promised. But that's me. You can hate what they're doing this season all you
like. But I get it.

This isn't to say of course that you're not smart enough to "get it," I just expected something more in line with what they're actually giving us.
 
I wonder if they're actually going to explain what the Light is and what specifically would happen if MiB got ahold of it, or if they're just going to leave it vague even through the finale. If I'd been a candidate, then I would of course have told Jacob "I might take your job, but first tell me exactly what that Light is!"

To kill MiB, you have to have not talked to him. Has any of our losties not talked to him? I know Sawyer and Jack did, but did Kate? Hurley?

Kate talked to him plenty when she was in MiB's camp. Hurley did when his group merged w/ MiB's. There's only one character on the Island who has not spoken with MiB......Miles.
 
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