Lost 6x15: "Across the Sea"

[exodus]

It's turtles all the way down.

Funny that you mention this, because no one has talked about the most important clue in the episode.

What was the meaning of that dead turtle on the beach, hm?

Turtle. Think about it, people.

I have been speculating for awhile that the end may be about the end of the cycle, not just the end for our characters. The dead turtle may represent the death of the cycle.

Mr Awe

I've thought the same thing.

Besides, isn't Smokey like a spirit now?
So if others spirits are trapped there, then no matter what Smokey does, he still can't leave.

 

[exodus]

Exactly right, Stone Cold. I'm not asking for them to answer everything in a neat package. I don't need all the questions answered. I don't even need the answers to make a whole lot of sense. But, please, give us something more then "it's magic."

In Twin Peaks the answer to who killed Laura Palmer was her father, possessed by an evil, spiritual parasite called "Bob" that originated in a place of evil called "The Black Lodge" and fed on the fear, pain and death he caused out in the real world, killed her.

Now that may sound stupid written out that way, and it doesn't answer any questions about who/what Bob really was, How he came into being, what the black lodge really was, when or how he possessed her father, what, if any, his long term goals were, how he got his powers or any of a dozen other questions about the murder, Bob, the black lodge or anything else... But...

It was a great answer for the show and what they had built it up to be. it didn't answer everything, but it answered just enough for any genre fan to be happy and love the series.

Just saying "it's a magical light" or "a magical place" isn't an answer. Or it's not a very good one. Just drinking a glass of wine isn't a "big reveal" on how to make someone a "guardian of the Island", just having the mother say "It took care of it so that you will never have to worry about dying and can never kill each other" isn't a good answer.

At least give us a bit more.

That's why I haven't given up all hope just yet. The answer could take 3 minutes of screen time to tell us over the next 3.5 hours of TV and I'd be happy.

It could be as simple as:

"There is a grand design to the universe. Everything is connected to everything else. A butterfly flapping it's wings in China can cause a tornado in Kansas. The reason everything is so connected is because of this "spark" of life (energy) in all things. this Island, for some long lost reason, is a focal point for all of this energy that connects every living thing through out the world.

Ancient mystics called them "lay lines" lines of energy encircling the globe. they all meet here on this island. being so close to the convergence of all of these "lay lines" gives the island special properties. Amazing things happen here. Amazing coincidences. Healing energy. Special powers over fate and life itself. By studying and controlling the lay lines that converge here you can alter peoples fate and lives. But there is a danger as well. If this island was ever destroyed by man, or natural causes, then the energy would die out. the Lay lines would drift apart. there would be no more "spark". Life on Earth would end.

The MIB touched the focal point of the lay lines directly. He is part of them now. He can see people's pasts by studying their "aura" and back tracking their "lay lines". But with his connection to the lay lines he is now tied to them as well. if he leaves, the lay lines would split apart and the spark would go out. Ending the world. He has to stay here, close to the focal point or all is lost. it was up to Jacob to keep him here and keep the focal point safe. Now it will be up to one of you to take Jacob's place."

I just made that up off the top of my head and it would take all of three minutes to have "ghost" Jacob explain it to the Losties. And that would be fine and make everything all good in my books. it doesn't answer everything, but it explains a lot and and still keeps the mystery alive and doesn't contradict anything we've seen so far in the series.

All I ask is that they at least give us something like that. An answer, even a vague one, is better then just saying it is "magic" or "the mother made it that way."

Yes, the Island is: Shangra-La, Eden, Atlantis, Fountain of Youth, etc..... any and all myths we've heard about a mystical place where nobody ever grows old, dies and is full of miracles.

They've given us many answers, just some of them are in metaphor.
It's up to us how we interpret them.

 

[O'Dib]

As disappointing as this episode was, I guess it was good to get a couple things out of the way. Jacob and Brother aren't angelic beings or gods. They were born just like anyone else, and stranded on the island, and so was their stepmom. This implies the island has always drawn in people and given them magical properties in order to safeguard itself. Still, if that's all the answer we're gonna get on the subject, we didn't really need this episode. Most of this was implied already. It's a mystery that could've been unraveled with two lines of conversation, like they've been clumsily doing with all the other better-left-alone mysteries.

Another thing, apparently the source of life/light and the electromagnetic properties are one and the same. I find this interesting. A magical and scientific explanation to the same thing. Kinda like when Animal Magnetism, the quasi-scientific forerunner of Psychology, showed up and posited that 'Demonic possession' is simply an imbalance of inner energies, and 'exorcism' is an inherent power to balance these in another being via hypnosis, instead of a gift from God.

Anyway, it's starting to look like the writers have written themselves into a corner, having to spend time on explaining stuff. I don't find 'answers' as fascinating as the personal trajectories of the main characters. Most of the mysteries I was content to write off as 'freaky shit going down, ooooh'. Let's get back to the meat and bones of this thing.

 

[Mr Awe]

^^ Personally, I liked seeing the specifics for these important details even if it didn't answer many question. I actually think they did answer some questions, but not in an epic way. Still, I liked seeing Jacob's and MiB's history play out. I wasn't expecting the huge answers until the finale. Expecting them several episodes before the finale is a bit silly.

Don't worry, the "meat and bones" aren't far off, just a couple of weeks. So a bit of patience would be in order.

Mr Awe

 

[exodus]

Good Lord!
A few weeks ago folks here were raving how Ricard's ep. was Emmy worthy. Crying over how good and emotional the death of Sun & Jin was. Suddenly, in one single ep. folks are ready to throw in the towel. Fickle.

 

[LitmusDragon]

I don't follow why people are dismissing the Jacob character entirely based on this episode. It's ... having trouble finding an analogy ... it's a little like watching Tapestry and deciding Picard is an idiot because he started a fight with a bunch of Naussicans. OK so that's kind of a bad analogy, but it's in the ballpark. What we saw in this episode was the beginning of Jacob's arc, it's not the be all and end all of his character. Obviously he knew more about the island later on, how else do you explain the lighthouse or his going off-island or ... any number of other things? The implication of the episode is that once you become the caretaker you gain a deeper understanding of the island and become able to manipulate it somehow. This is how Jacob was able to create his own rules, for example it must have been him who made the rule that Ben couldn't kill Widmore and vice versa (which would be an interesting story, but one we probably won't see at this point)!

I don't have a problem with the vaguely Druidic-Wiccan angle that the island caretaker position seems to have taken. If you go back to the beginning of things then magic would have been the equivalent of technology at that point, so it makes sense that magic would have been used as a kind of technology to pass the caretaker position from one person to another. Besides, if you find the concept that distasteful, you can always assume that the chant or whatever she did was merely a ritual, the actual passing of the island from one caretaker to the other could be entirely mental for all we know.

The one complaint I have about the glowing cave is that it's kind of a cheesy visual. I'd almost rather it be a symbol in a dream than an actual place. It is a symbol, of course, a symbol for the energy underlying all life, which makes the Island a kind of nexus for all living things, and it's heart must be protected. I thought that was pretty clear from the episode, but maybe not I suppose.

I don't think this can be the end of the Jacob and Man In Black story. There's a second act we haven't seen yet.

 

[exodus]

I don't follow why people are dismissing the Jacob character entirely based on this episode. It's ... having trouble finding an analogy ... it's a little like watching Tapestry and deciding Picard is an idiot because he started a fight with a bunch of Naussicans. OK so that's kind of a bad analogy, but it's in the ballpark. What we saw in this episode was the beginning of Jacob's arc, it's not the be all and end all of his character. Obviously he knew more about the island later on, how else do you explain the lighthouse or his going off-island or ... any number of other things? The implication of the episode is that once you become the caretaker you gain a deeper understanding of the island and become able to manipulate it somehow. This is how Jacob was able to create his own rules, for example it must have been him who made the rule that Ben couldn't kill Widmore and vice versa (which would be an interesting story, but one we probably won't see at this point)!

I don't have a problem with the vaguely Druidic-Wiccan angle that the island caretaker position seems to have taken. If you go back to the beginning of things then magic would have been the equivalent of technology at that point, so it makes sense that magic would have been used as a kind of technology to pass the caretaker position from one person to another. Besides, if you find the concept that distasteful, you can always assume that the chant or whatever she did was merely a ritual, the actual passing of the island from one caretaker to the other could be entirely mental for all we know.

The one complaint I have about the glowing cave is that it's kind of a cheesy visual. I'd almost rather it be a symbol in a dream than an actual place. It is a symbol, of course, a symbol for the energy underlying all life, which makes the Island a kind of nexus for all living things, and it's heart must be protected. I thought that was pretty clear from the episode, but maybe not I suppose.

I don't think this can be the end of the Jacob and Man In Black story. There's a second act we haven't seen yet.

Preach it!!

 

[davejames]

Yes, the Island is: Shangra-La, Eden, Atlantis, Fountain of Youth, etc..... any and all myths we've heard about a mystical place where nobody ever grows old, dies and is full of miracles.

They've given us many answers, just some of them are in metaphor.
It's up to us how we interpret them.

Agreed. I think people are getting way too hung up on the island itself, and what makes IT tick. The writers have said all along that all that really matters is the affect the island has on the characters.

Obsessing over the mythology and continuity to this insane degree kind of misses the whole point I think.

I may be a science-loving atheist in real life, but for THIS show I have no problem accepting that the island is just a mysterious, magical place that no one will probably ever understand. And I like that the writers are trying to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

[Mr Awe]

I don't think this can be the end of the Jacob and Man In Black story. There's a second act we haven't seen yet.

As a total guess, I suspect the second act involves a reconciliation. The adoptive mother seemed surprised there were twins. Perhaps the traits for the ideal caretaker were split between Jacob and MiB. Jacob has the ability to see human traits from a far while MiB had the ability to see the close up detail. They're viewing the same things but from different perspectives. Probably the ideal caretaker can see both.

Mr Awe

 

[Ryan8bit]

I think people are getting way too hung up on the island itself, and what makes IT tick. The writers have said all along that all that really matters is the affect the island has on the characters.

While that makes sense, how does that really explain this episode? There is no need for a mythology episode like this that focuses on characters who were not part of the original cast if that's the writers' motto. This episode almost seems like an attempt to explain the mystery, while blatantly not doing so.

I'm reserving judgment for the finale, but I will be upset if some of the blatant mysteries aren't solved, or if the finale itself presents more mysteries. I'm not really a fan of having a carrot dangled in my face.

 

[Mr Awe]

Yes, the Island is: Shangra-La, Eden, Atlantis, Fountain of Youth, etc..... any and all myths we've heard about a mystical place where nobody ever grows old, dies and is full of miracles.

They've given us many answers, just some of them are in metaphor.
It's up to us how we interpret them.

Agreed. I think people are getting way too hung up on the island itself, and what makes IT tick. The writers have said all along that all that really matters is the affect the island has on the characters.

Obsessing over the mythology and continuity to this insane degree kind of misses the whole point I think.

I may be a science-loving atheist in real life, but for THIS show I have no problem accepting that the island is just a mysterious, magical place that no one will probably ever understand. And I like that the writers are trying to keep it that way as long as possible.

I also agree and wanted to add that this ties into the whole "Wizard" sideshow debate in this thread. It's missing the point. So, we saw that Jacob was basically a "wizard" with Richard. That got transfered back to his adoptive mother. And this, in turn, transfers back for who knows how long via the "turtles all the way down" symbolism. Ultimately, it goes down to whatever that bottom turtle is standing on, which is probably the glowy heart of the island.

Ultimately, it's a magical island and to be surprised when magic happens is a bit silly. The magic island is the one unbelievable thing in this story and then you can follow it's different affects on all of the various characters throughout the island's history.

If you get hung up on the one unbelievable aspect of the story, any story, you're missing the point of the story.

Mr Awe

 

[RobertScorpio]

^^ Yep..I agree with this collection of posts. LOST has done what TWIN PEAKS and XFILES couldnt...end on a GOOD note. Though, we still have two episodes to go...but you know what I mean.

Rob

 

[Ryan8bit]

Ultimately, it's a magical island and to be surprised when magic happens is a bit silly.

I'm not really surprised by visual magic so much as infinite regress and dubious cause.

The show has constantly done this sort of transference, and it needs to end at some point:

-Danielle has a lot of answers. Nope, she's a nobody.
-Ben has all the answers. Sorry, there's still someone higher.
-Richard has all the answers. Nope, he's almost as worthless as Ben.
-Jacob has all the answers. Maybe, although he probably had to figure them out himself. And now he's dead.
-Mother has all the answers. Maybe? She's also dead.

On a show that could rightfully be described as a mystery, this constant transference gets to be a touch annoying, especially this late in the game.

This is what the common trope "A Wizard Did It" refers to, not the actual casting of a spell. It all comes down to them presenting a great mystery and then presenting a deus ex machina style answer. Because even magic can and should have rules.

 

[exodus]

While that makes sense, how does that really explain this episode? There is no need for a mythology episode like this that focuses on characters who were not part of the original cast if that's the writers' motto. This episode almost seems like an attempt to explain the mystery, while blatantly not doing so.

How much focus did we get of Ben before he was part of the main cast? Same with Desmond. We got a story about Ricard, he isn't part of the main cast either. Fairaday? Miles?

It's alway been about mythology.
Black smoke passing judgement and grabbing people, where in reality does that happen?
Whispers in the jungle.
Locke walking.
Rose cured of cancer.

Characters like Danelle, just because they were nobodies doesn't mean they didn't have answers.
Everybody has a piece of the puzzle. If you pay attention to what they tell you & piece it together, you can figure stuff out even if it relates to mythology.

 

[Ryan8bit]

While that makes sense, how does that really explain this episode? There is no need for a mythology episode like this that focuses on characters who were not part of the original cast if that's the writers' motto. This episode almost seems like an attempt to explain the mystery, while blatantly not doing so.

How much focus did we get of Ben before he was part of the main cast? Same with Desmond. We got a story about Ricard, he isn't part of the main cast either. Fairaday? Miles?

It's alway been about mythology.
Black smoke passing judgement and grabbing people, where in reality does that happen?
Whispers in the jungle.
Locke walking.
Rose cured of cancer.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

The writers said that the show will focus only on the mysteries that affect the main characters. Yet, this episode has no apparent effect. Maybe it will, but I'm getting a vibe of 'producers say one thing, yet do another', which they have a fairly consistent history of doing.

 

[davejames]

-Danielle has a lot of answers. Nope, she's a nobody.
-Ben has all the answers. Sorry, there's still someone higher.
-Richard has all the answers. Nope, he's almost as worthless as Ben.
-Jacob has all the answers. Maybe, although he probably had to figure them out himself. And now he's dead.
-Mother has all the answers. Maybe? She's also dead.

I think that might actually be the point. All those people held up as an authority, and who are believed to have all the answers... ultimately turn out to be as "lost" as everybody else on the island. I think it's kind of poetic, really.

 

[exodus]

While that makes sense, how does that really explain this episode? There is no need for a mythology episode like this that focuses on characters who were not part of the original cast if that's the writers' motto. This episode almost seems like an attempt to explain the mystery, while blatantly not doing so.

How much focus did we get of Ben before he was part of the main cast? Same with Desmond. We got a story about Ricard, he isn't part of the main cast either. Fairaday? Miles?

It's alway been about mythology.
Black smoke passing judgement and grabbing people, where in reality does that happen?
Whispers in the jungle.
Locke walking.
Rose cured of cancer.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

The writers said that the show will focus only on the mysteries that affect the main characters. Yet, this episode has no apparent effect. Maybe it will, but I'm getting a vibe of 'producers say one thing, yet do another', which they have a fairly consistent history of doing.

Seriously, you haven't noticed that what Jacob & Smokey are doing does affect the main characters & has been since the first episode? What we saw in this ep. has effected the last 5 seasons we've been watching.

 

[RobertScorpio]

yep...exactly. It will be fun, when this show is over, as I am currently doing with 24, to go back and just watch LOST from the start, but in rapid fashion as I am doing with 24. I think some people just cant stand back far enough when discussing continuity issues of LOST, which hopefully, seeing again, will take care of.

Rob

 

[startrekwatcher]

Don't give up yet!

I feel much the same way as you about how things were explained/revealed this last episode... BUT...

They can still turn things around. It might just be a case of them wanting to show us stuff but not wanting to answer any questions until the last episode.

This is what I'm hoping however I thought the very same thing about nBSG's mythology. That I would give them the benefit of the doubt and maybe they as the writers knew better than me and I thought there that perhaps what seemed like a myriad of disjointed threads that couldn't possibly be resolved in a handful of episodes would be nicely unified with a KEY missing piece of the puzzle that we just didn't have yet--that didn't happen.

That is why I'm a little guarded and concerned the same thing could happen here--that the writers just might get burnt out having been as productive as they had been in seasons 3-5 and then to say heck with it--we've answered what we have and maybe the fans will be as exhausted as we have become and just will go along with it--they just don't have the fight in them let to complain too loudly. Can a few outstanding unknown pieces satisfactorily pull it all together? I mean the writers have demonstrated that they can do it--just look at seasons 3,4 and 5. However if history has taught us anything is that the same writers that can produce brilliant hours of television can also lose it i.e. Heroes.

I'm not surprised at all. I'm genuinly surprised the writers, at this late stage of the game, 3rd to last episode, an entirely flashback episode detailing the past of Jacob and the Smoke Monster.... would continue this vague nonsense style of writing. I said this before but none of this shit makes any sense.

Yeah I was going back over my notes for the show spanning the entire series the last few days and a lot of questions have been answered and satisfyingly but a lot of them are still dangling such as the whole thing surrounding Horace's cabin that Jacob used. How did Ben know of it? What was with the spectre looking like an old man and saying "Help me"? When did Smokey commandeer it from Jacob? Why move the island to protect it from Widmore then stop moving it so Widmore could return--what was the point? Widmore said John was important to the Coming War and needed to be on the island--how did he know this--it would have made sense if Widmore was working with Smokey--get them back and I'll kill Jacob so you can have the island and I can leave--but that wasn't how it turned out. Afterall Widmore promised to protect John yet Ben kills Abaddon and kills John--how would a man as powerful as Widmore let that just happen? If Widmore was actually working with him then all this makes a bit more sense.

We also saw Ben try to summon the monster by emptying water in a drain--what was that all about--who told Ben this was a way to summon him? Will Charlotte's remark of knowing more of Ancient Carthage than Hannibal himself go anywhere? Why did Jacob take over Horace's cabin? What was all that weird shit with Bea and Walt in season 2? Was he a candidate?

Now maybe I'm forgetting something or missing something because there is just sooooooo much information to remember and sooooo much series to go back over to try to make sense of it all but my brain is giving me the same The X-Files warning that is telling me that a lot of this isn't gelling so don't even try and expend energy doing so--that a lot of stuff very well might end up being nothing more than contrived mysteries that the writers might have intended to do something with but in the course of the show changed their minds and there was nothing they can do about and will end up being dead-ends and their only purpose was to pique our curiosity and keep us coming back. I'm thinking back to a lot of season 2, for instance.

However, I told myself I'd reserve judgment on the series until I had a chance over the summer to rewatch it all armed with all the wealth of information supplied in the intervening years and judge it then.

Really up until then the series is a work in progress--constantly in a state of fluctuation never fully set in stone as this massive Puzzle reorients and shifts in various spots as new segments are moved into place and new information is revealed and context is given to pieces that at one time had existed in an isolated vacuum. I think the series is composed of so many elements that it will turn out having an assortment of various plusses and minusses never being all bad or all good--afterall this was never a simple series so why should its evaluation be simple. I mean if you had the time and inclination you could spend years to come analyzing it--heck I've felt I have already spent waaaaaaaaay too much time pondering it which would make not having definitive answers to all the questions a bit aggravating.

Afterall there are so many ways to go about tackling the series as a viewer-- I mean the first time through I mainly watch for the revelations, the questions, the answers, who knows who, who knows what, who knows what when, who knows what vs the audience, the introduction of pieces. Then I sit down with my little notebook and go about assembling the story and working my way out from these very little pieces and making connections and then continue building on top of them to create this ever expanding Massive Narrative since most LOST episodes are just a patchwork of various pieces of varying sizes that the writers leave up to us to put in their places. Then as each season has progressed everything for that season sorta focuses to a tip and you can look back at all the character connections and intertwined histories. Then later on you can go back and decide to untangle and Filter out everything and just Focus on Each Individual Character and appreciate the sweep of their narrative that had been jumbled and out of order and meshed with others' overlapping stories with a more linear approach once you have everything clear in your mind. Or you can go back and watch instead how a Particular Story evolved.

 

[exodus]

^^Ben would have learned things about Smokey from Ricard, who is in connection with Jacob.

Widmore is in contact with Elouise & Faraday, who are gifted in mathmatics.
We saw how Elouise can find the Island.
Widmore was also an Other, who would also know Ricard, who is in contact with Jacob.

The cabin is still a little up in the air but....
Remember the black ash around it? Remember the line was broken? Remember how Alania's team mate put a black ash circle around himself to ward off Smokey?
Someone (maybe Claire) broke that line of ash, allowing Smikey to cross over to the cabin.