Losing Voyager

[Continuous Cosmos]

Janeway FTW!!

 

[at Quark's]

No need for hyperbole , but I agree with you. The "use of the reset button" is a complaint so overused among Voyager critics that it's now actually more tropey than the trope itself. I bet TV Tropes has a clever name for that - maybe something like Hypertropeism, or the Tropeic of Cancer.

I do think this criticism is justified in itself- far too much use of the Reset Button. However, I don't think it's fair to single Voyager out on this account, as a lot of (non-Voyager) Trek is guilty of this. At best, you could perhaps be slightly more stringent on Voyager because of their supposed lack of structural support (supposedly no consistently accessible repair facilities, limited resources, and such).

 

[Oddish]

I do think this criticism is justified in itself- far too much use of the Reset Button. However, I don't think it's fair to single Voyager out on this account, as a lot of (non-Voyager) Trek is guilty of this. At best, you could perhaps be slightly more stringent on Voyager because of their supposed lack of structural support (supposedly no consistently accessible repair facilities, limited resources, and such).

That's part of it. Also, for starters...
- Discarded premises. The Maquis all become such good little Starfleet, none even jump ship when given the chance.
- Changed premises without explanation. Would it have been hard to explain where they got all those torpedoes?
- No consequences. They sacrifice their 21 meter long warp 7 capable shuttle... but are they without it for even a few episodes? Nope, they build another like it's no big deal.
- Lack of character development, or uneven character development. B'Elanna goes from "borderline psychopath who assaults people who disagree with her" to "valued team member" in one episode. Then, she spends the next 7 years on the endless treadmill of reconciling herself to her Klingon heritage over and over again.
- Pure sloppiness. Disappearing Borg babies, mysterious Borg resurrection methods that only come up once, need I go on?
- And the only reason I didn't mention Harry was there's no reliable way to tell if their treatment of him was incompetence or malevolence. It was unacceptable either way.

 

[at Quark's]

That's part of it. Also, for starters...

^Well, I didn't mean to imply there weren't any other (possible) criticisms of the series, I just wanted to comment on this particular one.

 

[Farscape One]

I do think this criticism is justified in itself- far too much use of the Reset Button. However, I don't think it's fair to single Voyager out on this account, as a lot of (non-Voyager) Trek is guilty of this. At best, you could perhaps be slightly more stringent on Voyager because of their supposed lack of structural support (supposedly no consistently accessible repair facilities, limited resources, and such).

I agree that all the shows have used the reset button from time to time, but it's worse with VOYAGER because of the lack of resources, lack of any explanations, and how frequent it was. What makes it egregious is many of the issues could have been solved with just 30 seconds or less of dialogue... even a captain's log would have covered most of them.

I think part of why it's more glaring on VOYAGER is that for most of its run, it ran concurrent with DS9, which was clearly better at servicing all of their lead characters. (In addition to about a dozen secondary/recurring characters.) Especially when they air on the same night (it did in Miami, anyway) from 9 to 11 p.m., it's difficult not to compare writing styles. In defense of VOYAGER, I will say that because of the amount of network and suit interference, it wasn't allowed to flourish like DS9.

I really like VOYAGER, but I'm also not blind to the glaring issues.

 

[Oddish]

Fair enough... Voyager presents a very big target. And it's a glowing tribute to the sheer charisma and skill of the cast (especially Mulgrew, Picardo, and Ryan) that the show transcended its incompetent showrunners to be a well-regarded entry into the Trek pantheon.

 

[at Quark's]

I really like VOYAGER, but I'm also not blind to the glaring issues.

I can understand that, and I agree to what you are saying in the rest of your post.

However, to me Star Trek's primary function is entertainment and to me (personally) such matters don't detract too much from my enjoyment from the series as such.

But, of course, that's purely personal.

 

[Farscape One]

I can understand that, and I agree to what you are saying in the rest of your post.

However, to me Star Trek's primary function is entertainment and to me (personally) such matters don't detract too much from my enjoyment from the series as such.

But, of course, that's purely personal.

On that measure, being entertaining, VOYAGER absolutely succeeded. To the same/better/worse degree as other shows is a completely subjective question. For myself, if it wasn't entertaining, I wouldn't have watched each new episode as it aired from "CARETAKER" to "ENDGAME". Nor would I have seen every episode multiple times.

 

[fireproof78]

Personally I'm happy that the problems on Voyager could be solved rather quickly. I wouldn't have like to see Voyager become like the horrible Stargate Universe when the whole first season was ruined by the constant bickering between the Military Faction and the Civilian Faction and most of all the two awfl characters who were the leaders of those factions.

Absurdist argument is absurd. I was not arguing for constant bickering.

Therefore it was realistic to adapt to Janeway's ideas of an united crew, ev

How many people adapt that quickly?

 

[Lynx]

That's part of it. Also, for starters...
- Discarded premises. The Maquis all become such good little Starfleet, none even jump ship when given the chance.
- Changed premises without explanation. Would it have been hard to explain where they got all those torpedoes?
- No consequences. They sacrifice their 21 meter long warp 7 capable shuttle... but are they without it for even a few episodes? Nope, they build another like it's no big deal.
- Lack of character development, or uneven character development. B'Elanna goes from "borderline psychopath who assaults people who disagree with her" to "valued team member" in one episode. Then, she spends the next 7 years on the endless treadmill of reconciling herself to her Klingon heritage over and over again.
- Pure sloppiness. Disappearing Borg babies, mysterious Borg resurrection methods that only come up once, need I go on?
- And the only reason I didn't mention Harry was there's no reliable way to tell if their treatment of him was incompetence or malevolence. It was unacceptable either way.

Not to mention how Kes was treated. It was downright disgusting.

And I totally agree with everything you have written above. It would have taken so little effort to come up with some explanations why they still had shuttles and torpedoes, either by coming up with a solution like my idea of The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team or simply stick to the original premise by not wasting any shuttles and torpedoes at all.

The same with B'Elanna's all to quick change during one episode and The Borg bay and everything else.

Fair enough... Voyager presents a very big target. And it's a glowing tribute to the sheer charisma and skill of the cast (especially Mulgrew, Picardo, and Ryan) that the show transcended its incompetent showrunners to be a well-regarded entry into the Trek pantheon.

Well, despite its flaws, it did at least have great characters. Unfortunately all but three of them (Doctor, Seven, janeway) were more and less wasted during the later seasons.

I agree that all the shows have used the reset button from time to time, but it's worse with VOYAGER because of the lack of resources, lack of any explanations, and how frequent it was. What makes it egregious is many of the issues could have been solved with just 30 seconds or less of dialogue... even a captain's log would have covered most of them.

I think part of why it's more glaring on VOYAGER is that for most of its run, it ran concurrent with DS9, which was clearly better at servicing all of their lead characters. (In addition to about a dozen secondary/recurring characters.) Especially when they air on the same night (it did in Miami, anyway) from 9 to 11 p.m., it's difficult not to compare writing styles. In defense of VOYAGER, I will say that because of the amount of network and suit interference, it wasn't allowed to flourish like DS9.

I really like VOYAGER, but I'm also not blind to the glaring issues.

I can see your points here.

As for me, I only had the opportunity to watch one season of DS9 before jumping into Voyager.
I wonder how I would have react if the channel which aired DS9 where I lived hadn't ditched it after one season and I would have had the opportunity to watch it together with Voyager. Would I really had become such a Voyager fan (at least for three seasons) if I had had DS9 to compare with back then?

Absurdist argument is absurd. I was not arguing for constant bickering.

No, I know that you didn't. And I doubt that Voyager would have been as bad as Stargate Universe. even with more bickering

But still I find it logical that most of them stuck together in the situation which was.

How many people adapt that quickly?

Not all, I must state. But I still think that most of them could do that, for reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[fireproof78]

Not all, I must state. But I still think that most of them could do that, for reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

I agree but I would like to see the process unfold rather than "Eh, we're over it."

The biggest way Voyager handled conflict was like shared distress and now we're good.

 

[at Quark's]

Reminds me of this small snippet of dialog (granted, taken slightly out of context):

JANEWAY: <....>I don't think of you or B'Elanna or the others as Maquis. I think of you as part of my crew.
CHAKOTAY: You may have forgotten, but we haven't. <...>

I'm not advocating for constant bickering either, but I wish we would have seen slightly more of that.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well for atleast the first part of the first season, instead of going straight into stand alone weekly, use the first half of the season to tell the story of 2 crews coming together, maybe even a mutany, or finding a habitable planet or freindly aliens that would take refugees. Also during that time having the crew come to terms with there new normal. People freaking out, maybe even some suicides. by the half season most of this would be sorted out, crew would be the crew, and people getting on with there new normal lives.
Maybe after a year, there would be a rehash of where the crew is mentaly, have a few wanting to jump ship, they cant see themselves on the ship.
They never really showed a ships counselor, except Nelix.. (ugh)

Honestly so many story ideas that even a partially serialized show like SNW does would have improved the series 1000%

 

[Oddish]

Just have there be infighting and squabbling for a year, then have the malcontents blow when they reach Planet 37's. After that, the Maquis put on Starfleet uniforms. And, after "Pathfunder", go to normal pipips instead of those bars on their colllars.

 

[Lynx]

I agree but I would like to see the process unfold rather than "Eh, we're over it."

The biggest way Voyager handled conflict was like shared distress and now we're good.

I agree with your statement.

I could also add the Kes-Neelix breakup to this. It was downright ridiculous. Kes breaks up with Neelix when she's posessed by an alien entity and that's it.

The breakup should have taken place in season 2 during 2-3 episodes, not as some main plot but something which could have been going on in the background for a while and then a decent, well-explained breakup instead of what we got in the otherwise good episode Warlord.

NCIS handled this much better when one of the agents, Ellie broke up with her husband who cheated on her. It didn't interfere with the main plots in any story but was still good described.

Just have there be infighting and squabbling for a year, then have the malcontents blow when they reach Planet 37's. After that, the Maquis put on Starfleet uniforms. And, after "Pathfunder", go to normal pipips instead of those bars on their colllars.

As I wrote before, there shouldn't have been so much infighting but maybe some minor conflicts which could be solved when the most obstructive of the Maquis decided to stay on the 37's planet.

On the other hand, in that case we would probably have missed Suder's and Jonas's scemes and the nice scene when Janeway and Chakotay gors to the Shuttle Bay to say goodbyte to those who are about to leave the ship and no one is there.

As for the Maquis, I don't understand why they had to wear those "Maquis bars" instead of Starfleet insignia. I mean, if it was supposed to be a Starfleet crew, then they should have been integrated as Starfleet crewmen without any special insignia.

Not to mention that Chakotay had served longer in Starfleet than Paris had so he should definitely have had a normal Starfleet Commander insignia.

Or they could have made the Maquis a special force on the ship, maybe in all-black uniforms with Chakotay as their commander.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Should Voyager have gotten lost later in the first season? We could have seen a little more of how their mission was supposed to work, get to know the characters who died better and feel their loss more keenly.

The whole premise revolves around Voayger being lost. It's like saying would Lost in Space be better if they spent half a season not being lost at all.

Voyager getting lost wasn’t the problem. Voyager getting lost and the formula essentially still being exactly the same was the problem.

This is on the money.

 

[Oddish]

As I wrote before, there shouldn't have been so much infighting but maybe some minor conflicts which could be solved when the most obstructive of the Maquis decided to stay on the 37's planet.

That's kind of the point. There should be Maquis who don't fit in as Starfleet. Just use the opportunity provided by Planet 37's to eliminate them.

On the other hand, in that case we would probably have missed Suder's and Jonas's scemes and the nice scene when Janeway and Chakotay gors to the Shuttle Bay to say goodbyte to those who are about to leave the ship and no one is there.

Nice, maybe. But ridiculous, when you think about it. I'd have had a few Maquis leave, as well as Joe Carey. Because if soneone was -ing PROMOTED for assaulting me, I'd be pissed too.

As for the Maquis, I don't understand why they had to wear those "Maquis bars" instead of Starfleet insignia. I mean, if it was supposed to be a Starfleet crew, then they should have been integrated as Starfleet crewmen without any special insignia.

It indicated their provisional status. Once Voyager was in contact with Starfleet and they confirmed the field commissions, they could just go to regular pips.

Not to mention that Chakotay had served longer in Starfleet than Paris had so he should definitely have had a normal Starfleet Commander

Actually, he was a LCDR when he resigned. Janeway didn't give Chakotay a field commission per se; she reactivated an existing one.

 

[fireproof78]

for the Maquis, I don't understand why they had to wear those "Maquis bars" instead of Starfleet insignia. I mean, if it was supposed to be a Starfleet crew, then they should have been integrated as Starfleet crewmen without any special insignia.

Temporary commissions vs. full commissions.

Like Wesley's acting Ensign uniform.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Temporary commissions vs. full commissions.

Like Wesley's acting Ensign uniform.

Indeed.

In fact, if I was depicting Wesley Crusher now as an ensign (which I wouldn't initially anyway), then I'd put him in the regular uniform with a Provisional Ensign bar rather than the grey outfits that he wore as an "Acting Ensign".

 

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

Maybe they could have written in that someone on Chakotay's ship was close to Keiko and Janeway decided to take her due to reasons. Boom, we watch Keiko grieving over not seeing Miles and Molly while on Voyager, and Miles and Molly mourning the loss of their wife/mother on DS9.

I'm really conflicted on this one... On the one hand, yes, I get it ... on the other...
I feel Miles went through enough as it is during DS9 without having to pile that on top of it... so, I dunno.