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But I see no reason to have a lot of squabbling and infighting between Janeway and Chakotay. Nor do I see anything meaningful in having a lot of bickering and fighting among a crew on a ship. In the long run, it's only annoying, especially when the crew do have a common goal to strive for.
This right here illustrates that arguments around wanting conflict are not well understood. This is a strawman of an argument around people supposedly wanting 'Walking Dead in Space" with Voyager or Stargate Universe or any other myriad examples. It's pure, unadulterated, nonsense.
Conflict does not mean "squabbling and infighting." It means disagreement over how to achieve common goals, what course of action to take, what rules don't make sense, and how to achieve these things. If one wants an example of actual conflict working across a series then look at the Mandalorian. Characters move from antagonists to allies. That's a way to handle conflict.
It doesn't have to. This is a strawman set up because the idea of conflict makes people uncomfortable. Except, Star Trek has a long history of it, and can work even in small pieces, like McCoy and Spock. Or, see above about the Mandalorian who actually had characters go from belligerents to allies. Kind of like the Maquis and Starfleet.
True. Then again, most Maquis had been Federation before they became Maquis, many Starfleet,even. So they knew what Starfleet was about, even if they didn't see eye to eye about the Maquis/Cardassian zone problem.
Kira, on the other hand, spent her entire life under Cardassian occupation as a resistance fighter, didn't know Starfleet up close and personal, and was deeply suspicious at first they were just trading one overlord for another, one that might drop his mask of benevolence and 'we're only here to help you!' once they felt they had gained a sufficient foothold on Bajor.
So yes, I can buy the Maquis falling into line a bit quicker than Kira given the circumstances they found themselves in (even if not as quickly and easily as we see them do in Voyager).
True. Then again, most Maquis had been Federation before they became Maquis, many Starfleet,even. So they knew what Starfleet was about, even if they didn't see eye to eye about the Maquis/Cardassian zone problem.
Kira, on the other hand, spent her entire life under Cardassian occupation as a resistance fighter, didn't know Starfleet up close and personal, and was deeply suspicious at first they were just trading one overlord for another, one that might drop his mask of benevolence and 'we're only here to help you!' once they felt they had gained a sufficient foothold on Bajor.
So yes, I can buy the Maquis falling into line a bit quicker than Kira given the circumstances they found themselves in (even if not as quickly and easily as we see them do in Voyager).
True. Then again, most Maquis had been Federation before they became Maquis, many Starfleet,even. So they knew what Starfleet was about, even if they didn't see eye to eye about the Maquis/Cardassian zone problem.
Kira, on the other hand, spent her entire life under Cardassian occupation as a resistance fighter, didn't know Starfleet up close and personal, and was deeply suspicious at first they were just trading one overlord for another, one that might drop his mask of benevolence and 'we're only here to help you!' once they felt they had gained a sufficient foothold on Bajor.
So yes, I can buy the Maquis falling into line a bit quicker than Kira given the circumstances they found themselves in (even if not as quickly and easily as we see them do in Voyager).
Yes, I can see them falling in line, nor do I think at any point should they be "at each others throats!!!!" (insert rage emoji here) for 7 seasons. That's not the point at all. I can buy Maquis falling in line eventually as they discover that both groups needs each other to survive. But, the way Voyager unpacked there was no apparent need that is met by the two groups willing to work together or how they can work out their differences. Their differences are glossed over for the most part.
The Maquis may have been a bunch of disgruntled starfleet for the most part, but some of them left not to primarily joint he maquis but because they either hated starfleet, got in trouble and drummed out, etc. Not like all of them seen a Maquis recruitment poster and decided then and there to sign up ( some did, granted)
So for a good percent, they'd just file right back in, but for some it would be more difficult. But thats just being on a federation ship, Now add the 75 years + from home, even some regular starfleet would be like. Uh.. No? and start looking for the best door.
I wouldn't do like they basically did, 2nd episode, there all settled in doing there duty. I' would have strung it out a bit, giving the core cast an episode or 2 to turn around and get on the fleet train.
Like say, Chakotay isn't really happy, thinks he can lead better, so have an episode where the captain gets injured, and he's in command, and he finds out he's not all that, and Janeway returns to save the day, with a new found respect, he gets on the train, and learns from her.
Etc. Etc. on BLanna or Paris.
Maybe after 6 months or a year in Trek time, they'd bring up some disgruntled crew that are tired of fighting the enemy of the week and want off, or try a mutany, or try to sell out to kazon etc.
It would NEVER be a com by yah everybodys on the fleet train and everybody's 100% behind the trip home.
As a captain, i would know i would have to trim a few rotting branches, so its not effecting the whole tree.
Maybe after 6 months or a year in Trek time, they'd bring up some disgruntled crew that are tired of fighting the enemy of the week and want off, or try a mutany, or try to sell out to kazon etc.
It would NEVER be a com by yah everybodys on the fleet train and everybody's 100% behind the trip home.
If so, yes, I felt like the initial harmony hits too quickly. I mean, the ship goes on exploration missions multiple times, ignoring the "get home" mandate.
I wonder how much crew turnover there was on the Enterprises and DS9 for non-routine reasons, and consequently how realistic things on Voyager are by comparison. If one disagrees severely enough with Kirk or Picard or Sisko's decisions, requesting a transfer is always an option...and if one behaves badly enough (but not too badly) a transfer might happen anyway. Not an option for the good folks on Voyager. It's hard for me to imagine things like Janeway's handling of Tuvix or Lessing not causing enough concern for some people that, under ordinary circumstances, they would request reassignment...are we supposed to believe that everyone, no matter how problematic Janeway's actions may be for them, at least feels that being a good little crewperson and sucking it up is just the best path forward they have? Even if that was so, I would imagine their low morale might manifest in ways that would ultimately make them a liability.
I would never want VOY to become as dark as NuBSG in terms of how some people 'coped' with their situation, but I would have liked to see more acknowledgment that not everyone on the ship was well-suited to the circumstances in which they found themselves.
I brought this up before in a different thread, but I still wonder whether the folks on Voyager were essentially conscripted. Which is to say, what if there was a Maquis who went through Tuvok's little training program but was still incompetent or lacked the discipline to be a Starfleet officer, or simply had mental trauma that made them ill-suited to serve? Are they required to serve or get booted off at the next habitable planet? VOY never really addressed the idea that everyone aboard wasn't either capable of being a good little Starfleet officer or was so problematic that they needed to be confined as a security concern.
What about if a few get so bad ( really this show need that Therapy counselor.. and not Nelix.. THOUGH if Nelix was the counselor, and taken seriously, could have given him some meat to chew instead of the class clown stuff)
that some might be like, Can i be put in Stasis. I know the ship could be blown up but I can't take it anymore.
This show could have used a "Barclay" type that could show a crew memeber not quite doing well. Mental health, maybe even suicide. etc.
This right here illustrates that arguments around wanting conflict are not well understood. This is a strawman of an argument around people supposedly wanting 'Walking Dead in Space" with Voyager or Stargate Universe or any other myriad examples. It's pure, unadulterated, nonsense.
Conflict does not mean "squabbling and infighting." It means disagreement over how to achieve common goals, what course of action to take, what rules don't make sense, and how to achieve these things. If one wants an example of actual conflict working across a series then look at the Mandalorian. Characters move from antagonists to allies. That's a way to handle conflict.
But what I have seen in those series in which there were such internal conflicts it just become boring, just like Stargate Universe and The Walking Dead, the last one a typical doom-and-gloom series.
When it comes to Voyager, I can agree that some situations were solved a little too fast, like B'Elanna's change from angry Maquis to good Starfleet Officer, that change should have happened during at least two or three episodes and been better explained, most likely without her hitting Carey, an act which should have disqualified her from an officer post for at least a couple of years.
But I stand for my previous comments about the situation they were in after the Maquis ship was destroyed. Their best, if not only chance to get home was to join Janeway's crew and common sense told them to do that.
Not to mention that they trrusted Chakotay and therefore it was easy to follow his example.
Even Eddington would have done the same.
As for The Mandalorian, I haven't seen it because it never reached the distant shores I live on. Obviously it only lasted for one season.
I don' thtink that Kira became Starfleets best buddy overnight". It was a longer process than so.
But still, in the situation she was, she made a logical choice to cooperate with Starfleet and Sisko in particular because it was the best and maybe only option.
I would never want VOY to become as dark as NuBSG in terms of how some people 'coped' with their situation, but I would have liked to see more acknowledgment that not everyone on the ship was well-suited to the circumstances in which they found themselves.
A bunch of survivers from a devastated Earth go out in space to find another planet they could ruin. They hadn't learned anything. And they were smoking! Oh dear!
Another series I turned my back to after watching two or three episodes.
Therefore I was a bit surprised when one of my channels showed the original BSG. Definitely better.
But what I have seen in those series in which there were such internal conflicts it just become boring, just like Stargate Universe and The Walking Dead, the last one a typical doom-and-gloom series.
But I stand for my previous comments about the situation they were in after the Maquis ship was destroyed. Their best, if not only chance to get home was to join Janeway's crew and common sense told them to do that.
One, there is nothing so uncommon as common sense.
Two, these are people fighting against Starfleet, running from them, and planning attacks. Emotions are going to run high, even in survival situations. Actually, especially in survival situations.
A bunch of survivers from a devastated Earth go out in space to find another planet they could ruin. They hadn't learned anything. And they were smoking! Oh dear!
I'm going to somewhat TL;DR my original post and provide a really good example instead, one that I should have thought of earlier: Naomi Wildman.
Obviously by "Endgame" she's still a child and can't reasonably be expected to serve.
But when does that change, and what does it mean when it does change? If Voyager spends another two (or many more) decades lost in space(!), is Naomi expected to become a working member of the crew? Is she required to become a working member of the crew? What if she doesn't want to 'join Starfleet', as it were? What if she proves ill-suited to be a member of the crew? What if she becomes the anti-Icheb and has barely any desire to even be on the ship, much less work with them, but isn't asking to be let off either? Does she just get to be a (possibly disgruntled) passenger?
I suppose the best analog here would be, "What if Jake Sisko was trapped on Voyager?" except that Jake always seemed willing to help if not always competent to do so. But we never saw who Naomi would become as an adult in the primeline.
No, but constant bickering can be devastating for a group of people who actually have to cooperate to achieve something, which in this case was to get back to the Alpha Quadrant.
Constant bickering can be devastating to a TV series too.
One, there is nothing so uncommon as common sense.
Two, these are people fighting against Starfleet, running from them, and planning attacks. Emotions are going to run high, even in survival situations. Actually, especially in survival situations.
I don't think there's ever any suggestion in the BSG series that smoking is harmful to them. Perhaps they're smoking something harmless to them, or their medical technology has advanced to a point that it can address any harmful effects?
No, but constant bickering can be devastating for a group of people who actually have to cooperate to achieve something, which in this case was to get back to the Alpha Quadrant.
Constant bickering can be devastating to a TV series too.
Maybe, but it was inevitable.
In fact, it did take about five months until the both crews were "getting together"
In the episode Prime Factors, Janeway is sitting in the Mess hall with Tuvok, observing how Torres, Seska, Paris and Kim are joking and having a good time.
JANEWAY: I think it's finally beginning to happen. Both crews getting along.
TUVOK: That kind of bonding should improve performance and maximise efficiency.
Prime Factors took place at Stardate 48642.5 which is Monday 23 August 2371. About five months after the events in Caretaker (Stardate 48315.6 "6 April 2371). That's a long enough time for people to start realizing that we got to stick together to make this.
And then we still had the problems with Seska herself (but for other reasons than the other Maquis), Suder and Jonas. Not to mention that the problems with dalby, Henley, Chell and Gerron weren't solvet at that time. Even Jonas and Jarvin did show some reluctance to becoming Starfleet.
They were on the run due to their original twelve colonies being destroyed by a robot invader snd they ate trying to find Earth.
It might not be for you but goodness please get the basics right.
Yes, I agree that I mixed up the premise for NuBSG. But the problem is still the same and the scenario I mentioned with people running from a devastated Earth or an Earth which is going to be devastated seem to be common in all series and movies made in the 2020:s
Wondering now, what were Jonas' plans and motivations anyway? He must have understood that relaying information to the Kazon was a very risky business, liable to be discovered sooner or later. What did he expect to do in case he was found out? Escape to the Kazon like Seska did and lead a luxurious life there as a reward? (He didn't strike me as the type that wanted power or influence for its own sake, like Seska, but rather for some benefits).
Wondering now, what were Jonas' plans and motivations anyway? He must have understood that relaying information to the Kazon was a very risky business, liable to be discovered sooner or later. What did he expect to do in case he was found out? Escape to the Kazon like Seska did and lead a luxurious life there as a reward? (He didn't strike me as the type that wanted power or influence for its own sake, like Seska, but rather for some benefits).
Good question especially because a luxurious life by Kazon starndards is probably much less luxurious than living a regular life on Voyager. Neelix acted like he lived like he king when he got to sit in a bathtub, what could the Kazon offer that would make Jonas want to leave Voyager?
But the problem is still the same and the scenario I mentioned with people running from a devastated Earth or an Earth which is going to be devastated seem to be common in all series and movies made in the 2020:s
