Losing Voyager

[evilchumlee]

But we did have characters like Carey, Rollins, Samantha Wildman, Dalby, Henley, Chell, Gerron, Seska, Hogan, Jonas, Suder, Culluh.

Many of those could have been used better. Why was cared ditched after season 2 and why did we only see Dalby, Henley, Chell and Gerron in one episode?

Vorik?

There are actually quite a few recurring crew. They're just not focused on.

Ayala shows up quite a bit as I recall. The Delaney Sisters are mentioned quite a bit.

Sure they could have done more with the other people on the ship, and definitely could have done better with recurring villains, but there are quite a few who at the very least get name dropped.

 

[Farscape One]

Characters get name dropped all the time in the various shows. That des NOT make them recurring characters. Selar was mentioned numerous times in TNG, but only appeared once. The Delaney sisters were mentioned many times, all the way back to "TIME AND AGAIN". Only appeared once. Ayala was a background guy and mentioned all through the series. Spoke only one line, I believe... toward the end. Vorik did appear basically once a year after season 3, and spoke dialogue, so he was recurring. Samantha Wildman stopped appearing after early season 5, except once in "FURY". (Which took place in early season 1 VOY.)

Compare that to how DS9 did their recurring characters... such as Garak, Nog, Martok, Bareil, Winn, Rom, Leeta, Keiko, and Ross. (And that's just those stationed on DS9 or were on Bajor. Add in Dukat, Winn, Weyoun, Brunt, Zek, Ishka, Female Changeling, and Damar.) Even Morn, who never spoke a word, got more depth than nearly all the recurring characters on VOY.

The treatment and amount of recurring characters between DS9 and VOY... there's just no comparison.

 

[Anwar]

DS9 had the entire Trekverse to pull characters from. VOY didn't have that advantage, and most of those external characters were ones with interesting background like Alien Leaders and Generals and Holy People and Alien Emissaries and the like. Not the kind of ones you can create from a bunch of random rebels.

Yes, I'm including NuBSG in there too because most of their characters weren't the random crewmembers of the Galactica but important political characters from other ships and colonies.

This is why the other crew should've either been Romulans or random DQ aliens that were being held on the Caretaker's Array that the VOY crew took with them when they escaped. The kind you could justify having more interesting backgrounds to build characters from.

 

[fireproof78]

Yup.

We all know Starfleet officers are the most boring characters to tell a story about and cannot have interesting backgrounds.

 

[Farscape One]

DS9 had the entire Trekverse to pull characters from. VOY didn't have that advantage, and most of those external characters were ones with interesting background like Alien Leaders and Generals and Holy People and Alien Emissaries and the like. Not the kind of ones you can create from a bunch of random rebels.

Yes, I'm including NuBSG in there too because most of their characters weren't the random crewmembers of the Galactica but important political characters from other ships and colonies.

This is why the other crew should've either been Romulans or random DQ aliens that were being held on the Caretaker's Array that the VOY crew took with them when they escaped. The kind you could justify having more interesting backgrounds to build characters from.

All the DS9 recurring characters I just mentioned, except for Keiko, never appeared in the franchise until DS9. So they weren't 'pulling characters from the Trekverse'... DS9 created those characters.

And while most of the crew and Maquis were human, there were other races on board, too. At least 3 Bajorans (Gerron, Tal Celes, Tabor), at least two Bolians (Chell and Golwat), and at least 3 Vulcans (Tuvok, Vorik, and a background female Vulcan). Plus half-Ktarian Naomi.

While DS9 did a deep dive into the Bajorans (for obvious reasons, as it the station was inside their system), VOY could have done a few things with their Bajorans. We rarely got speaking Bolians in that era, so the Bolians on board could have been developed and given the audience a few looks into their culture. I will agree that the Vulcans were served adequately in VOY. (Tim Russ was fantastic.)

So VOY still had some good cards to play... they just didn't utilize the full deck.



Regarding BSG... are you serious?

A LOT of their secondary and recurring characters were from the Galactica herself, not 'important political characters from other ships and colonies'. A few examples...

Colonel Saul Tigh, Lt. Felix Gaeta, Chief Galen Tyrol, Lt. Anastasia Dualla, Cally Henderson, Lt. Brendan 'Hot Dog' Costanza, Lt. Louanne 'Kat' Katraine, Lt. Alex 'Crashdown' Quartaro, Captain Karl 'Helo' Agathon, Doctor Sherman Cottle, Lt. Margaret 'Racetrack' Edmondson, etc.

But sure... BSG never gave any focus on their crewmembers at all. Nor did we ever learn these characters names, ranks, and traits because they never uttered any dialogue or had countless scenes with them or were with the rest of the leads of BSG at all.

(Just so there is no confusion, that last paragraph was sarcasm. I know with some people and the internet, it's sometimes difficult to tell the difference.)

 

[Anwar]

Yup.

We all know Starfleet officers are the most boring characters to tell a story about and cannot have interesting backgrounds.

And that's why the main cast were mostly them. The secondary characters should offer alternatives.

VOY was in the Delta Quadrant, therefore the characters should've been drawn more FROM the Delta Quadrant.

Regarding BSG... are you serious?

Fine, I'll use Farscape as an example. We had an Ex-Peacekeeper, a deposed Hynerian Monarch, a disgraced Luxan General (who turned out to be otherwise but was imprisoned for a murder he didn't commit), an imprisoned Holy Woman and later on an escapee from what was a powerful invading force that hadn't begun their invasion yet. Not exactly the variety of people you'd find among random rebels.

Farscape's characters were mostly from the area of space the show took place in, to help flesh out the area. Voyager should have done the same with making it's secondary and recurring characters be Delta Quadrant Natives.

A LOT of their secondary and recurring characters were from the Galactica herself, not 'important political characters from other ships and colonies'. A few examples...

Colonel Saul Tigh, Lt. Felix Gaeta, Chief Galen Tyrol, Lt. Anastasia Dualla, Cally Henderson, Lt. Brendan 'Hot Dog' Costanza, Lt. Louanne 'Kat' Katraine, Lt. Alex 'Crashdown' Quartaro, Captain Karl 'Helo' Agathon, Doctor Sherman Cottle, Lt. Margaret 'Racetrack' Edmondson, etc.

Tigh and Tyrol and Helo were main characters. And half of those people weren't terribly interesting and were more about their relationships to the main cast than being interesting themselves. They were plot devices used to build on the mains.

I'm talking about characters like Zarak and the like.

 

[Farscape One]

And that's why the main cast were mostly them. The secondary characters should offer alternatives.

VOY was in the Delta Quadrant, therefore the characters should've been drawn more FROM the Delta Quadrant.



Fine, I'll use Farscape as an example. We had an Ex-Peacekeeper, a deposed Hynerian Monarch, a disgraced Luxan General (who turned out to be otherwise but was imprisoned for a murder he didn't commit), an imprisoned Holy Woman and later on an escapee from what was a powerful invading force that hadn't begun their invasion yet. Not exactly the variety of people you'd find among random rebels.

Farscape's characters were mostly from the area of space the show took place in, to help flesh out the area. Voyager should have done the same with making it's secondary and recurring characters be Delta Quadrant Natives.



Tigh and Tyrol and Helo were main characters. And half of those people weren't terribly interesting and were more about their relationships to the main cast than being interesting themselves. They were plot devices used to build on the mains.

I'm talking about characters like Zarak and the like.

Tigh, Tyrol, and Helo were not leads... they were not in the main title credits. Functionally, I'll agree they were leads, but they still weren't technically leads.

And whether the others were plot devices or not, they still got far more screen time, dialogue, and use than most of the recurring people on VOY.

It should be noted that seasons 1 and 2 had more recurring people than the later seasons... Carey, Seska, Jonas, Suder, Hogan, Samantha Wildman. Except for Carey and Wildman, all were killed by the end of the produced second season. ("BASICS, PART II" was the last produced episode of season 2... like season 1, UPN aired it as the season 3 premiere.) Michael Piller was in charge of the writing staff for those two sessons, then stepped away from STAR TREK. Given how he also was showrunner for the first 2 seasons of DS9, I'm not surprised by this when I discovered the pattern. Piller understood that having more secondary/recurring characters only helps to enrich a show and make it feel more real and alive.

(That man was a true gift to the franchise... not only for his own work, but for how many people he took under his wing and helped develop their skills. I don't think Michael Piller gets the credit he deserves.)

I do agree that it would have heen nice to get more aliens from the Delta Quadrant as crew. They toyed with that with the Borg children... and except for Icheb, they were quickly taken out after only a few appearances. (Barely half a season after their introduction.)

 

[Lynx]

I am in agreement with you about VOY and more recurring characters on the ship. The premise almost demanded it, since there would be no way to get new Starfleet (or Maquis) crew. The lack of recurring characters, particularly after season 2, is glaring. Especially when compared to DS9, which ran concurrently with each other until DS9 ended. It's hard not to make this comparison when both series aired new episodes on the same night back to back. (They did in Miami, anyway.)

I live on the other side of the Atlantic and had the bad luck of seeing DS9 being cancelled after only one season by the channel which aired it.

I wonder if I had been such a fan of Voyager as I was for the first three seasons if I had had about three seasons of DS9 to compare with?

Maybe. It has great characters and had a good premise which unfortunately never was fulfilled. But DS9 has more quality, especially when it come to the storytelling.

Now it took many years before I got the chance to watch DS9 and discover what a great series it is!

How? You can still tell stories with Romulans and Vulcans. That's not ruined to me.

And oh so exciting they will be as refugees without a home, constantly being reminded of and remembered for The Great Disaster.

. The fan reaction to TNG was that Trek was ruined because it isn't Star Trek without Kirk or Spock.

Well, I thought those comments were silly back then and still think so. TNG actually gave new life to Star trek, something the doom-and-gloom series after Voyager haven't done.

Two, art will always reflect life. The world chsnged in 2001 and we see the darker themes explored, which is something Trek has always done since TOS divided Kirk in half and he had a good side and a evil side.

That's exactly my point! The world started to go dystopian back then and we have come a long way on that road since then. That's the reason why I no longer follow any series on TV because it has all become so incredible boring. Not even NCIS is interesting anymore.

The problem is that after being out in the world of doom-and-gloom for the whole day, I want to relax with something exciting and entertaining, not being forde-feed with even more doom-and-gloom.

That is Trek. Not just blind optimism that ignores darkness. Otherwise it becomes a fairy tale irrelevant to daily life, if it hasn't already.

It has become too dark and boring for my taste.

Vorik?

There are actually quite a few recurring crew. They're just not focused on.

Ayala shows up quite a bit as I recall. The Delaney Sisters are mentioned quite a bit.

Sure they could have done more with the other people on the ship, and definitely could have done better with recurring villains, but there are quite a few who at the very least get name dropped.

Sorry, I forgot Vorik. But he wasn't in so many episodes.

Voyager should have needed more recurring characters with some interesting stories. Just namedropping didn't help.

 

[fireproof78]

And oh so exciting they will be as refugees without a home, constantly being reminded of and remembered for The Great Disaster.

Nope. Rebuilding from a disaster is not boring.

Well, I thought those comments were silly back then and still think so. TNG actually gave new life to Star trek, something the doom-and-gloom series after Voyager haven't done.

I guess you and I are in different boats, because 5 (count them, 5!) series is new life to me. Even if I don't like most of it, it still is reaching out to fans and nonfans. Bring on that "doom and gloom" BS.

The problem is that after being out in the world of doom-and-gloom for the whole day, I want to relax with something exciting and entertaining, not being forde-feed with even more doom-and-gloom.

I want to see dragons get slayed. That's not doom and gloom to see people succeed which is what Star Trek does, including currently. The beauty of fiction is not a fantasy world of no problems, or no dragons. But it tells me dragons can be slayed. Discovery did that for me, Picard somewhat, and definitely Lower Decks and Prodigy. SNW is good too. There is more positive there than the broad stroke painting with numbers approach of supposed "doom and gloom" which ignores what is actually happening.

It has become too dark and boring for my taste.

Darker than DS9 and the near conquering of Earth? Yeah, no, no thanks. I'll take the struggle through by the characters over how DS9 ended.

 

[Lynx]

Nope. Rebuilding from a disaster is not boring.

It is when it comes to wiping out the homes of two of Star Trek's most important and interesting races and turn them into nothing.

It took 20 years to rebuild Europe after WWII and that was thanks to US aid. In this case we are talking about vaporized planets.

I guess you and I are in different boats, because 5 (count them, 5!) series is new life to me. Even if I don't like most of it, it still is reaching out to fans and nonfans. Bring on that "doom and gloom" BS.

I want to see dragons get slayed. That's not doom and gloom to see people succeed which is what Star Trek does, including currently. The beauty of fiction is not a fantasy world of no problems, or no dragons. But it tells me dragons can be slayed. Discovery did that for me, Picard somewhat, and definitely Lower Decks and Prodigy. SNW is good too. There is more positive there than the broad stroke painting with numbers approach of supposed "doom and gloom" which ignores what is actually happening.

The only of those 5 series I would consider to watch is SNW. Lower Lecks and Prodigy are cartoons, good in some way but not exactly wjhat I want. As for Picard and Discovery, I gave up on them very quick.

Darker than DS9 and the near conquering of Earth? Yeah, no, no thanks. I'll take the struggle through by the characters over how DS9 ended.

DS9 had what I wanted. It could be dark from time to time but there were lighter episodes in between all that. Not to mention that there was always the feeling that justice would prevail in the end.

OK, I didn't like that jadzia Dax was killed off but otherwise the series was free from the character destruction and destruction of plantes which have became common in series and books made after DS9

 

[fireproof78]

is when it comes to wiping out the homes of two of Star Trek's most important and interesting races and turn them into nothing.

Nope.

Romulans still exist. They sre not nothing. They’re no longer a police state, which might be a positive.

Also, hypothetical idea: a show about Cardassia rebuilding is boring too?

Not to mention that there was always the feeling that justice would prevail in the end.

Except it didn't. Cardassia was devastated, Sisko is gone, Jadzia died to show how evil Dukat was. Klingon government completely upended and in order to save Odo Bashir had to invade a man's mind.

That's not justice to me.

 

[Anwar]

Tigh, Tyrol, and Helo were not leads... they were not in the main title credits. Functionally, I'll agree they were leads, but they still weren't technically leads.

They were as much "not leads" as Edward Hermann wasn't a main cast in Gilmore Girls (if you saw that show), or Noranti and Sikozu and Jool were "not leads" in Farscape.

And whether the others were plot devices or not, they still got far more screen time, dialogue, and use than most of the recurring people on VOY.

Yes, but it takes more than that to make a proper character.

Michael Piller was in charge of the writing staff for those two sessons, then stepped away from STAR TREK. Given how he also was showrunner for the first 2 seasons of DS9, I'm not surprised by this when I discovered the pattern. Piller understood that having more secondary/recurring characters only helps to enrich a show and make it feel more real and alive.

(That man was a true gift to the franchise... not only for his own work, but for how many people he took under his wing and helped develop their skills. I don't think Michael Piller gets the credit he deserves.)

I agree, Piller was lovely. I spoke to Nana Visitor about him once, she remembered him very fondly.

I do agree that it would have heen nice to get more aliens from the Delta Quadrant as crew.

Denara Pel the Vidiian as well, honestly the kind of story VOY was trying for in the premise doesn't work when the crew of the ship are mostly from far away and have no interest in sticking around. The Majority of the cast should have been Delta Quadrant aliens with the Fleeters are a minority. That would justify them wanting to stay in the Delta Quadrant until something happens that makes them agree to want to through themselves wholly behind Janeway and going to her home instead.

 

[Farscape One]

I do have to say that justice did prevail in most respects.

Gowron got killed and replaced with a better leader. The cure for Odo was taken by a man whose group was about to commit genocide. And Cardassia... the civilian people didn't deserve to get killed, but their empire is not innocent. Between what they did to Bajor and how they betrayed the entire quadrant by joining the Dominion, there's a bit of poetic justice in what happened to them. Garak even said so. (Granted, Dukat was the one who negotiated with the Dominion and it's certainly possible it was all him, but we have no evidence that their government didn't want to join them.) And considering the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar attacked the Founders' homeworld, there is no way that it wouldn't eventually bite Cardassia back in the ass had the Dominion won the war.

As the Female Changeling said to Garak in "BROKEN LINK"...

"They're dead. You're dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us. I believe that answers your question."

 

[Lynx]

Nope.

Romulans still exist. They sre not nothing. They’re no longer a police state, which might be a positive.

Also, hypothetical idea: a show about Cardassia rebuilding is boring too?

There's a big difference. Cardassia was devastated but not totally destroyed. Rebuilding Cardassia isn't boring but an interesting thing which some of Una McCormack's books has showed (until she started with character destruction which made me lose interest).

But both Vulcan and Romulus are totally destroyed and their population scattered even worse than the Bajorans once were and will never be more than that. I find that dystopian if anything.

Except it didn't. Cardassia was devastated, Sisko is gone, Jadzia died to show how evil Dukat was. Klingon government completely upended and in order to save Odo Bashir had to invade a man's mind.

That's not justice to me.

I can actually agree here. But still it wasn't worse than to destroy Vulcan and Romulus for nothing.

 

[fireproof78]

But both Vulcan and Romulus are totally destroyed and their population scattered even worse than the Bajorans once were and will never be more than that. I find that dystopian if anything.

Nope, it's not dystopian at all. That word has specific meaning. It needs to be used properly.

I can actually agree here. But still it wasn't worse than to destroy Vulcan and Romulus for nothing.

It wasn't for nothing.

 

[Lynx]

I do have to say that justice did prevail in most respects.

Gowron got killed and replaced with a better leader. The cure for Odo was taken by a man whose group was about to commit genocide. And Cardassia... the civilian people didn't deserve to get killed, but their empire is not innocent. Between what they did to Bajor and how they betrayed the entire quadrant by joining the Dominion, there's a bit of poetic justice in what happened to them. Garak even said so. (Granted, Dukat was the one who negotiated with the Dominion and it's certainly possible it was all him, but we have no evidence that their government didn't want to join them.) And considering the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar attacked the Founders' homeworld, there is no way that it wouldn't eventually bite Cardassia back in the ass had the Dominion won the war.

As the Female Changeling said to Garak in "BROKEN LINK"...

"They're dead. You're dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us. I believe that answers your question."

I can agree about what you are writing about Cardassia. The civilian people didn't deserve to be killed but their government created the situation which led to that.

As for the Female Changeling, she was a genocidial tyrant. She should have been executed for all her crimes, not only to Cardassia but to all worlds which were enslaved by the Dominion, like that planet with the disease which Bashir and Jadzia Dax visited.

But Gowron was a great character who shouldn't have been killed off. I will restore him in my writings!

 

[Lynx]

Nope, it's not dystopian at all. That word has specific meaning. It needs to be used properly.

Well, give me a better word for that.

In fact, what is more dystopian than a people without home, scattered over the Universe.

It wasn't for nothing.

Oh yes, it was. Destruction for the sake of destruction made by some writes and producers who jusd had to set their mark on the whole Star Trek creation.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, give me a better word for that.

In fact, what is more dystopian than a people without home, scattered over the Universe.

Diaspora.

We've seen it throughout history. It's possible to recover from it and I expect the Romulans to do exactly that. I welcome such stories because it is reflective of human history and endurance. There's no dehumanization in such destruction. Hell, why aren't we calling "dystopian" the races from "All our Yesterdays" or "Homeward"?

Oh yes, it was. Destruction for the sake of destruction made by some writes and producers who jusd had to set their mark on the whole Star Trek creation.

Agree to disagree. This is not real life. This is drama, and the destruction was used very effectively. Not destruction for the sake of it.

 

[Lynx]

Diaspora.

We've seen it throughout history. It's possible to recover from it and I expect the Romulans to do exactly that. I welcome such stories because it is reflective of human history and endurance. There's no dehumanization in such destruction. Hell, why aren't we calling "dystopian" the races from "All our Yesterdays" or "Homeward"?

I don't watch those series because they are just the kind of 2020s series I do avoid.
Why? because they are............well you know what I consider most series of this decade to be........
Just that! Dystopian!

Everything is dark, dark, dark and dark again.

I mean, the Vulcans and Romulans were important powerful races with a great influence on the quadrant and now they are reduced to crap. I can't accept such destruction of important Star Trek species.

Agree to disagree. This is not real life. This is drama, and the destruction was used very effectively. Not destruction for the sake of it.

So now it's just drama and should not be like "real life"? I thought you wanted it to be as much as "real life", especially as it is in this depressive century.

Anyway, it's not the kind of "drama" I like to watch. I do think that it was unnecessary destruction just for the sake of it and it has put another nail in the coffin of Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

So now it's just drama and should not be like "real life"? I thought you wanted it to be as much as "real life", especially as it is in this depressive century.

Obviously not, since drama, by its nature, will emphasize different things than happen in real life. NCIS is s prime example of this. It's a balance between realism and drama that I prefer, not ind escapism.

And if you think this century is depressing, never study history.

Everything is dark, dark, dark and dark again.

No.

mean, the Vulcans and Romulans were important powerful races with a great influence on the quadrant and now they are reduced to crap. I can't accept such destruction of important Star Trek species.

And no.

Destruction implies nothing is left which is fundamentally incorrect,.

At this point we are in circles. I'm out.