Looking for quotes/excerpts: progress made in the Federation/Earth?

[Timo]

The PD would be a fine place to have a clear civilian vs. Starfleet dichotomy. The latter are the ones with the WMDs, after all: it's both more relevant and more practical to put safeguards on their playing God than to try and stop the numerically supposedly vastly superior civilians-in-space from meddling to the best of their much humbler ability.

In general, one prominent piece of societal progress in the Federation seems to be that there are scant few laws. I mean, yeah, murder might be forbidden, except it's not categorically forbidden because Vulcans can murder each other on holy ground for cultural reasons. Slavery might be condemned, except its not categorically condemned because Kirk has no legal way of touching it on Ardana. Going by the lowest common denominator must make UFP rules bland indeed, in comparison with Starfleet ones.

Also, punishment seems to be a Starfleet thing exclusively. Civilians within the UFP just get therapy. And multiple rounds of it seem to do nothing at all to Mudd's inventive and mischievous spirit, or to Kasidy Yates' mental stability, so it's pretty progressive, considering it's also highly effective - we never hear of anybody repeating a specific crime.

...Dick Bashir breaking ancient Augmenting taboos notwithstanding. They still burn people on a stake for that. But it's a nice contrast piece to highlight how humanely the UFP forces the hand of its citizens.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ragitsu]

The death penalty was abolished, yes?

 

[dupersuper]

The death penalty was abolished, yes?

Until those pesky Talosians showed up...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In general, one prominent piece of societal progress in the Federation seems to be that there are scant few laws. I mean, yeah, murder might be forbidden, except it's not categorically forbidden because Vulcans can murder each other on holy ground for cultural reasons. Slavery might be condemned, except its not categorically condemned because Kirk has no legal way of touching it on Ardana. Going by the lowest common denominator must make UFP rules bland indeed, in comparison with Starfleet ones.

The first could be an extension of the "consent to serious harm during organised sport" principle that exists in at UK common law (not sure what the position in the US is on that), either that or perhaps it's covered under something free exercise of religion cause of the First Amendment. Because we do have examples of where homicide is illegal otherwise.

The second is more difficult, but perhaps relates to the "separation of powers" between Starfleet and the UFP political class? Kirk doesn't unilateral authority to act on slavery when it's practised by the legimate government of a member or allied world, but the Federation Council might be able to exert pressure or even sanctions on the planet once Kirk's report got to them, conversely it's entirely possible that Kirk could act against a wildcat colony within the general scope of "Federation territory" that was going the same thing?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Thing is, according to Angel One it is okay for civilians to go to a planet and start a revolution since as civilians, they aren't obligated to follow the Prime Directive.

That doesn't suggest there is a civilian requirement they are required to follow.

Since the Prime Directive seems to originate from Vulcan exploration rules, I suspect the Federation requires any organization or service which does engage in exploration to follow it, but everyone else can otherwise do as they please.

There's also the example Bread and Circuses, though: "Septimus, wherever we may be from, you must believe that it is one of our most important laws that none of us interfere with the affairs of others. If Captain Merik is Merikus, then he has violated that law, and he must be taken away and punished. Will you help us get to the truth of all this?"

Merik was explicitly a merchant marine captain, not Starfleet (because he flunked out of Starfleet Academy).

 

[The Wormhole]

The death penalty was abolished, yes?

Starfleet does execute people for visiting Talos IV.

 

[Ragitsu]

Starfleet does execute people for visiting Talos IV.

Hmmmm...this must be part of the TOS/TNG+ era divide.

 

[The Wormhole]

Hmmmm...this must be part of the TOS/TNG+ era divide.

Depends. Some do interpret the reference to no capital punishment in the 24th century as meaning the laws were changed so that visiting Talos IV is no longer a capital offense. I just interpret it as the writers of the 24th century show forgetting that plot point from TOS.

 

[Verteron]

Until those pesky Talosians showed up...

Military justice is often considerably harsher than civilian justice. Even present-day countries that have abolished the death sentence often have exceptions for things like desertion or disobeying orders during time of war. I think the Taolsian thing is a Starfleet order, not a Federation law, so similar might apply.

 

[Timo]

Starfleet does execute people for visiting Talos IV.

Or for violating GO4. And Kirk also feels murder warrants death.

These things seem to come and go, and possibly "this is the only one in the books" merely means "Starfleet/UFP practices death penalty, and many crimes carry the option of this punishment, but currently folks only fry for X, and the form of punishment is inactive for other types of crime". Different things would warrant the extreme deterrent at different times, depending on what horrors the valiant starship captains find in the depths of space, and what threats they then skilfully negate.

Of course, Kirk could lie to M-5 about the penalty for murder. And probably does, since he catches a few murderers himself, and those are directed to therapy instead. Apparently, a plea of insanity is not only possible but mandatory for all crimes ranging from use of counterfeit money (Mudd) to multiple homicide (Karidian).

Kirk would be highly motivated to lie about the Prime Directive to the pseudo-Romans, too, in order to survive his own capture and then proceed to catch Merrick on some wholly different grounds. Or even without legal grounds, as he does like to wield authority in very personal ways on occasion (pardoning and then marooning Khan, say).

That Vulcan would enjoy exceptional protection from laws condemning murder is quite troublesome - most of all because Vulcans murder in secret, their ritual being unknown to outsiders including the de facto law enforcers of the Federation, and nevertheless those enforcers can put no word in edgewise, having themselves to resort to putting edges in instead.

It's pretty much the same with Ardana. If Kirk's report is going to make a difference, how come Kirk can't threaten Plasus with that? How come only Plasus can threaten Kirk with federal consequences if the law enforcer meddles?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Or for violating GO4.

I'm pretty sure that was just a mistake in Turnabout Intruder and they meant to say General Order 6.

 

[Timo]

A large chunk of Trek is just mistakes. See, you made one yourself!

But put together, these form a 47. It must be a sign that this is for real.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Verteron]

That Vulcan would enjoy exceptional protection from laws condemning murder is quite troublesome - most of all because Vulcans murder in secret, their ritual being unknown to outsiders including the de facto law enforcers of the Federation, and nevertheless those enforcers can put no word in edgewise, having themselves to resort to putting edges in instead.

The Federation of the late 2200s is a loose organisation - more of a confederation than a federation, despite its name. I doubt it has any jurisdiction whatsoever over internal Vulcan affairs on their homeworld or their direct colonies. The Federation likely has a set of basic laws that operate for civilians in its own facilities/ships and Federation colony worlds (and maybe Earth as the capital), but these do not apply on an autonomous member government's soil.

The Federation had to explicitly to petition the Vulcan government to allow Kirk to be extradited to stand trial for his actions on Genesis, a request that Sarek had the power to deny, or at least temporarily stay. This is a far looser arrangement than normally exists between states in a fully Federal state.

Whether Vulcan would qualify for membership into the current Federation with a duel-to-the-death law on the books is an interesting question, but clearly as a founding member of the Coalition, it didn't go through a standard entry assessment to become part of the Federation, so any laws like this may simply be grandfathered in. Andoria has the Ushaan, which is also a fight to the death. Maybe Tellar does too.

 

[FederationHistorian]

The absence of conventional forms of discrimination

Jonathan Archer at a Vulcan inquiry- You Humans are too volatile, too irrational, too narrow-minded. That's what I heard for years, from every Vulcan I met. But we don't hold a candle to you when it comes to narrow-minded. We got rid of bigotry nearly a century ago. We're not afraid of diversity. We don't persecute it, we embrace it. If you call yourselves enlightened, you have to accept people who are different than you are.

 

[Ragitsu]

ENT carpet-bombed the Vulcans with many a steaming piles .

 

[fireproof78]

Not really. Vulcans in TOS were also very exclusionary.

 

[Ragitsu]

Not really. Vulcans in TOS were also very exclusionary.

There's a difference between being merely impassive and consistent displays of blatant frustration/cold anger (kind of like how some folks will say the other side is being emotional when they - the accusers - are operating on anger or concealed fear). ENT did its best to make the Vulcans look exceedingly unsympathetic compared to humanity.

 

[Ragitsu]

By the way, are there any clear references to standards of living on other Federation worlds (e.g., Vulcan, Andor or Tellar)? I always assumed that if you were a member of the Federation, your world has:

1. Warp drive (a given, considering it is a bare minimum requirement of first contact).
2. Abundant energy: plenty of fusion reactors and matter-antimatter engines.
3. Matter replicators.
4. Transporters.

Therefore, a human visiting Andor wouldn't have to worry about lodging and sustenance.

 

[fireproof78]

There's a difference between being merely impassive and consistent displays of blatant frustration/cold anger (kind of like how some folks will say the other side is being emotional when they - the accusers - are operating on anger or concealed fear). ENT did its best to make the Vulcans look exceedingly unsympathetic compared to humanity.

No. In Amok Time T'Pau was extremely unsympathetic.

 

[Ragitsu]

No. In Amok Time T'Pau was extremely unsympathetic.

"No" what? You're taking a drop in the bucket and comparing it to the bucket. Vulcans were a focal point in Enterprise. A single example (an individual) in a series can be excused as an aberration, but for them - a species - to regularly come off as acidic in another series is unmistakable. So much for "Live long and prosper." and "Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.".