Except for their murder-sex rituals.
"Logic extremists"
- Thread starter AntonyF
- Start date
Except for their murder-sex rituals.
I agree. Valeris in ST:VI did just as you said.
In fact, in trying to mentally separate the fan held myth of the Vulcans from their actual on screen portrayal, the conclusion that leaps out is that canonical full Vulcans are generally arrogant, dismissive and condescending, with a tendency to place their own 'logical' analysis above any other concerns such as compassion or tact. Even those characters who mellowed in the audience's view - such as Tuvok - still display many of those traits. Lethe portrays the interesting idea that Starfleet is considered a lesser pursuit for Vulcans, and perhaps helps to explain why Starfleet Vulcans (and half Vulcans) who actually integrate into multi species crews tend to be less intense in this respect than others.
Edit: it also occurs that this is another STVI-as-touchstone moment, in a sense.
Edit: it also occurs that this is another STVI-as-touchstone moment, in a sense.
Hey, nothing wrong with blowing off steam sometimes.
I quite like murder sex rituals, being a Stalinist Satanist and all.
Yeah, but don't ya find this a bit disappointing?
I mean I would have thought some of the Federation's strongest advocates would be Vulcans of the Surak-inspired kind, but we never see it. By all accounts his ideals were all about cooperation, acceptance of all life as equal, and building peace. So a union that basically seeks to end war and improve everyone's life through technology seems the most Vulcan thing ever.
Vulcans are a very nice people overall but they're a flawed race the same way Roddenberry humanity is (despite his claims),
Yeah, but what I mean is, politically, shouldn't Vulcans be some of the Federation's strongest supporters; an organisation of free association, that acts as a collective body for scientific research, sharing of ideas, cooperation against natural disaster, respect for the rights of all life, etc?
We instead see tons of ambivalence toward the organisation they helped found, which follows Surak's ideals, which researches the cosmos, which protects one and all.
I'd argue that actually makes a lot more sense as the groups which are the most pro-group, often have people who are anti as a counterpoint.
Basically, Britain for the EU and America for the U.N.
I think ENT far overdid "bad" Vulcans and Archer came off as an ungrateful racist but I don't mind the idea there's bad Vulcans (see Valeris) just like there are bad Starfleet officers. In this case, Sarek is a target for the extremists.
Well, considering McCoy regularly called him a "damn green-blooded Vulcan" in his face, there is absolute no reason Spock's dismissive remarks towards human were any other thing than friendly counter-banter. Despite their verbal sparring, they have shown to come along quite well with the other one.
As for his constant remarks about the "superiourity" - well, he was right. He was only ever talking about very specific characteristics, not racial ideology. Vulcans ARE stronger than humans, and have telepathic abilities. And, at least as far as I remember, he never stated anything above these simple facts.
So, Vulcan children who not have fully been logically formed and obviously act out of emotions say things that they shouldn't have said? How racist of them. What a society. Don't they know kids have act perfectly?
If you had actually read what I wrote, and not just tried to be reactionary at all cost, you would have noticed that I was complaining about how this trend started with DS9 and ENT. It's a specific complaint of mine, that they made a species, that beforehand was just "different" than us, but not better or worse, specifically a through-and-through racist society.
And that they clearly weren't before, in TOS/TNG or VOY, and that even ENT took a step back, when it showed the racist high command was specifically undermined by Romulans. But then ST09 and DIS just treated as a regular things for Vulcans to be racist, even though they really weren't before. Individuals? Sure. But not a s a society.
Last edited:
Killing somebody in self-defense (or even only in percieved self defense), and still being a pacifist, aren't mutually excluse. Sarek was a strong pacifist, who always advocated for a diplomatic solution, way above his simple commitment to his job.
And, as I've harped on before, the Vulcans have NEVER been presented as role models. Hell, the first full Vulcan we ever met, T'Pring, plotted to get Kirk or Spock killed just to get out of an arranged marriage. And Sarek was first introduced to us as a murder suspect! TOS portrayed them as a shifty bunch from Day One . ..
Considering Spock(!) was a role model, and for a long time the only Vulcan we know, yes, we can say Vulcans were somewhat role-models. Spock was never portrayed as "out-of-the-ordinary", or "the-only-not-racist-Vulcan".In fact, he represented a lot of "Vulcan ideas" to the viewers, like IDIC, and showed the general benefits (and sometimes flaws) of a purely logical apporach to behaviour.
T'Pring plotted her way out of an arranged marriage. Hardly something "truly despicable racist". And in case you didn't notice: Part of the Sarek-as-murder-suspect mystery was why he would do something like that, which really isn't in his nature.
You're REALLY fucking overstepping your boundaries of "they're all a shifty bunch" here. If you'd talk that way about any other speices that is not fictional, it would be hella' racist comment. As it was, Vulcans were just portrayed as "different", following logic instead of emotions. But with still being individuals with different personal conflicts or interests. Hardly something to chastizie them for.
IMO having flawed individuals is way more realistic than a "perfect logical society", which would be the other extreme compared to your "a bunch of racist assholes". Generalizising entire species is something that really shoudln't be done, and that Star Trek even tought us not to do in the past.
Last edited:
As I said: The pure existence of Vulcan extremists is nothing new or should shock anybody. That is in their nature as living, flawed beings to have radical viewpoints as well.
What IS a problem, is that Vulcans have recently been portrayed as a racist Apartheid-regime, in which non-Vulcans get institutionalized dis-advantages. That is both problematic, and a very recent addition to the franchise. And one that clashes with the central Vulcan theme of "IDIC". And one, I'm honestly really not fond of.
Allow me to enter this debate if you don't mind.
I think it's notable that when Spock was actually developed as a character, a lot of focus was made on the fact he's the most Vulcan who ever lived and may actually be that way in part because Spock overcompensated. As we saw in the one canonical TAS (which was always canonical), Spock was tormented for his half-human blood and suffered because of it. "Amock Time" actually said that Spock's efforts were successful and the biggest complaint his fiance had wasn't that Spock was half-human or other innate qualities but that he was TOO FAMOUS and TOO BELOVED to be a husband she could stand.
But yes, much of Spock's fandom was because he was an outsider and many people have commented his story line was due to the challenges of being mixed race in the Sixties until the Presemt Day.
I don't think the Vulcans are being portrayed as apartheid. I think they're prejudiced and there's a difference. As I said up there, "Vulcans are snooty and condescending. Romulans are genocidal murderers."
There's a bit of a spectrum here.
I agree a lot here - Spock certainly was not only a hero to us, the viewers, but also in-universe. How much he really overcompensated being Vulcan, and how much of it was being REALLY fucking professional and good at everything is to be debated.
IMO the "outsider who represents the ideals his people should follow" is something that applies much more to Worf than to Spock. The Vulcans were always portrayed as somewhat secluded. But it was never made clear how much of that was self-inflicted, and how much just a result of strangers not necessary wanting to live in the equivalent of a monk monastry where sex is only every 7 years.
Indeed. And that became also reflected in the writing. As in, people were a bit more lewd in their comments as they would be today (norms of society - and what is frowned upon to say and what not - change over time). So there's plenty of remarks about him being Vulcan (or us being humans) made that wouldn't be made today. But overall, there was no inherint racist element in the portrayal of Spock, or the Vulcans as a whole. Quite on the contrary actually. IDIC was not just a Vulcan motto, but also something of a commentary by the creators.
THIS is IMO the whole point of this debate. Because I am ABSOLUTELY your opinion here.
But I think both Star Trek 09 ("Your human mother") and DIS ("only ONE non-Vulcan allowed") introduce an element of racism inherint to the system, perpetuated by authoritve figures, that is completely new to the Vulcans, and IMO really shouldn't be there. Because it leaves the realms of "snooty and condescending" (which is a TOTALLY fair characterisation), and enters into the realms of "institutionalised discrimination based on race" (which is NOT).
Agreed. There's an ugliness to this series' take on the Vulcans that I'm not enjoying.
TNG did it first with Gambit Part 2
One issue I've always had with how Vulcans are depicted is they are supposed to have naturally stronger emotions than humans, but suppress them through training and discipline. Presuming that neural structure is roughly analogous between humans and Vulcans (which it should be in the Trekverse, because of interbreeding) one would expect that humans, with comparably weaker emotional extremes, would be more able to condition themselves to suppress all emotion. They should be "better Vulcans than Vulcans"
Isn't that just one Vulcan? Sarek was classy, urbane, and walked with authority. He was the man!
Humans are better. And they probably could. Vulcans are just a lot smarter, stronger, and live longer, well, except for the class of '49.
Similar threads
