Locutus and Ben Sisko

[Captaindemotion]

^Well, given that you haven't put forward any ideas, that's a bit rich.

And I'm not putting forward other ideas, I'm listing a synopsis of the plot and the dialogue to support my own interepretation of the purpose. You know, supporting evidence?

But I see now that there's no point in attempting any sort of civil debate with you. You just keep saying 'You're wrong' in so many words.

 

[dahj]

So I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with. But maybe you could, you know, say what you think the reason is instead of just saying what it isn't.

I always thought the purpose of these discussions was to put forward new ideas, not quote other people's as some kind of unbeatable trump card.

?

Captaindemotion was literally asking you to put forward a new idea in the post you quoted.

And you're accusing him of stifling debate?
Seriously?

 

[R. Star]

^Well, given that you haven't put forward any ideas, that's a bit rich.

And I'm not putting forward other ideas, I'm listing a synopsis of the plot and the dialogue to support my own interepretation of the purpose. You know, supporting evidence?

But I see now that there's no point in attempting any sort of civil debate with you. You just keep saying 'You're wrong' in so many words.

You're quoting two separate wiki's. Those pretty much are the opinions of various users who compiled said articles. Hardly irrefutable evidence given the amount of conjecture in the snippets you quoted.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^I didn't say that they were irrefutable evidence. But they're evidence nonetheless of the plot and of the dialogue and of the character development Sisko undergoes during the episode. That's a lot more than Deckard has done - he just keeps popping up saying 'No, that's not it.' I'm still waiting to hear what he says the point is.

Edit - http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/402.txt

Here are extracts from the actual script itself. First, the meeting with Picard:

SISKO
It's been a long time, Captain.

Picard looks at him curiously as they sit.

PICARD
Have we met before?

SISKO
Yessir. We met in battle. I was on
the Saratoga at Wolf 359.

Picard blinks, acknowledging that Sisko has said something
entirely inappropriate. He chooses to move on... but there
is a definite subtext that runs through the scene... Picard
is curt, remote... Sisko is Starfleet attentive but his eyes
are cold and angry...

And from near the end of the episodes, during his dealings with the Prophets.

SISKO

I've never left this ship...

JENNIFER ALIEN

You exist here.

SISKO

I... exist here.

The Tactical Officer leads Sisko #2 out... Sisko steps slowly
forward and moves to his dead wife taking the place of his
double... picks up her hand...

SISKO
(to the aliens)
I don't know if you can understand.
I see her like this every time I
close my eyes... in the darkness in
the blink of an eye, she's there...
like this...

JENNIFER ALIEN
None of your past experiences helped
prepare you for this consequence...

Sisko shakes his head, slowly...


DEEP SPACE: "Emissary" REV. FINAL 08/21/92 - ACT EIGHT 113.

244 CONTINUED:

SISKO
(softly)
And I've never figured out how to
live without her.

JENNIFER ALIEN
So you choose to exist here.

He nods, unable to speak... she moves closer...

JENNIFER ALIEN
It is not linear.

And of course it is so simple in its truth...

SISKO
No. It's not... linear.

Sisko gently places down the hand of his dead wife...
and as he accepts that this is really the end of their
life together, tears roll down his cheeks, and he
begins to truly grieve his loss.

But if someone saying 'No, that's wrong' without offering an alternative explanation is more convincing, well, there you have it.

 

[dahj]

You're quoting two separate wiki's. Those pretty much are the opinions of various users who compiled said articles.

Those opinions are an accurate analysis of what was written.

I'm all for people bringing their own views on the matter and discussing those ideas, but the interpretation in the wiki articles is clearly what was intended by the writers.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Thank you.

I have no difficulty with people taking a different interpretation from me - indeed, one of my favourite threads in the BBS is the ongoing 'A Song of Ice and Fire' one, because it's made me realise just how inadequate my own interpretation of the books was.

But I'm a little puzzled that I'm being asked for 'irrefutable evidence' to support my personal views (as if an interpretation can ever be irrefutable anyway), while others can simply tell me that I'm wrong, without ever saying what the correct interpretation is and that seems to be acceptable.

 

[Deckerd]

I didn't ask you for irrefutable evidence. You were brandishing quotes and accusing me of saying nothing despite the fact I'd already posted quite a few times. By all means keep whining about it, though.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^I didn't refer to you regarding the irrefutable evidence issue. And it's a shame you can't tell the difference between an observation and whining.

 

[DarKush]

I get the purpose of including Picard in the DS9 premiere as a way to pass the torch, but what exactly would you say was gained by the angst Sisko had towards Picard? For story purposes, why did Jennifer need to be killed by the Borg? Could she not simply have died another way that didn't require shoehorning Locutus and Wolf 359 into the story?

It was kind of neat in that episode, but in retrospect it seems very odd considering neither Picard nor the Borg ever make another appearance on the show.

My take on it was the tension was there to help set Picard and Sisko, and DS9 by extension, apart from Next Generation. DS9 was a going to be a darker show and its genesis was in one of the darkest times we had seen in Federation history. I liked that Sisko didn't like Picard at first, but by the end of the episode had come around. It was a lot of character growth for a pilot episode, perhaps more than we had seen with any other Trek captain in their pilots.

I also thought going back to Wolf 359 was a great move. BOBW was arguably TNG's finest outing and I don't think it hurt DS9 to bask in some of that glow. Plus the DS9 pilot finally gave us a taste of what the Battle of Wolf 359 had been like. And I think it showed how much Sisko had been forged in battle, with war playing such a major role on DS9 in later years, it was one of the best Trek historical moments to introduce us to his character, and it also tied him to Picard in an nontraditional way and made his hostility feel more legitimate than petty, if if perhaps unfair.

I do get your point about the Borg not showing back up on DS9. I would've loved a follow-up. Personally I thought Sisko could fit just as easily into First Contact as Picard did as the main character. And it would've been great to see Sisko take on the Borg at least one more time, early in the series before the Dominion became so prominent.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ My understanding, based on a recollection of a long-ago magazine article I read, is that they basically decided that the Borg were TNG's and VOY's thing and just felt that DS9 didn't need them or should leave them alone.

 

[DarKush]

^
I can see that, but I would've rather had a Borg v. Sisko: Round Two over just about any of the Voyager Borg episodes. When I think about it, I don't quite get that reasoning. For one, all Trek shows are in a shared universe so they should all have been able to use adversaries from other series, and to a great extent they did: Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians primarily were used by all three shows. So, why not the Borg?

I could accept the argument that they were TNG's thing, if VOY hadn't used them, and used them, and used them. Conversely, I wouldn't have minded if VOY and a TNG film could've found a way to use the Dominion either. If anything, a shared threat makes it bigger to me.

Further, I wouldn't have wanted the Borg to become a recurring adversary on DS9, just a show or two to show Sisko getting some serious payback. Plus it would've been cool seeing how the DS9 crew dealt with them.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^I agree, I think you're right.

 

[JarodRussell]

It would have been so absolutely awesome had Sisko been in First Contact. That would have been so incredible.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?

I understand this, and I believe this is what they were going for, however it makes Sisko look like a childish idiot. Picard was not himself and had no control whatsoever over his actions in BoBW. Sisko, a direct victim of those events, should care enough to do the research.

It isn't just unfair to poor Picard, but also kind of stupid to be this rude to an officer who outranks you, who is basically a celebrity and who has significant influence within Starfleet.

Sisko does get over it in the end, and I always thought he realised what a dick he was being, and that his anger was generated by his loss and not by Picard. All's well that ends well.

 

[R. Star]

Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?

I understand this, and I believe this is what they were going for, however it makes Sisko look like a childish idiot. Picard was not himself and had no control whatsoever over his actions in BoBW. Sisko, a direct victim of those events, should care enough to do the research.

It isn't just unfair to poor Picard, but also kind of stupid to be this rude to an officer who outranks you, who is basically a celebrity and who has significant influence within Starfleet.

Sisko does get over it in the end, and I always thought he realized what a dick he was being, and that his anger was generated by his loss and not by Picard. All's well that ends well.

Oh don't get me wrong, Sisko -was- being rude and a dick to Picard. Blaming him for his actions as Locutus is hardly fair. But also completely understandable. That scene put a very opposite viewpoint to the victimization of the Borg. Whereas in Best of Both Worlds we saw Picard's utter rape and exploitation, in Emissary, the same battle we see Sisko's loss of his friends and wife along with those other 11,000 people. And it's Picard's face that haunts his nightmares. Really that exchange there was what made the Borg seem so evil.

As for Sisko's being rude to Picard? What was Picard going to do? Write Sisko up and send him and Jake back to Earth? I'm sure that would have disappointed Sisko a lot. He probably was subconsciously daring Picard to do it. Then he could blame the man for ruining his family and his Starfleet career. It really does put perspective on that Bajorian Prophecy where the Prophets are said to have saved the life of the Emissary. Sisko was on a dark road when we first met him.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

If Picard were a dick himself, he'd probably make life more difficult for Sisko...although, Sisko managed well enough all by himself.

Thing is, although Sisko was being unfair and a moron, I liked the exchange. Shows that humans are not perfect and that there still is room for interpersonal conflict. This is often unfair in real life, as well.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

I always liked the cameo of Picard in Emissary. Not only does it proverbially pass the torch as previously mentioned, but it serves two other purposes.

One is to give a bit of insight into Picard, you get to see how people outside his circle of acquaintances and people he's comfortable around react to his Borg past and that haunted look on Picard's face. Between Avery Brooks angry glare and Stewart's face deflating so much is said in that one snip without words.

Two is to establish that hey, Sisko isn't like Picard and this isn't the hunky dory TNG crew that sings kumbaya in the meeting room. Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?

I agree with this. Poor Sisko went through a lot, and then to have your wife's murderer in your face and of all things, doling out instructions; it was just too much. Yeah, Picard wasn't himself when it happened, but that doesn't change the fact that the love of Ben's life is gone and he has to raise his motherless child alone.

Sisko's reaction to Picard was very real. It reminds me of reading about right after WWII, and a German woman traveled to France and wanted to room in a little boarding house there. The woman that owned and ran the place wouldn't let her stay because her husband and 2 brothers were killed by the Germans. She said "I'm sorry, but I can't."

With Sisko's loss being so fresh, it's a testament to his self control that he sat there while Picard sipped tea and crossed his legs for a chat, when all Ben could think about was his wife being taken from him, I'm sure. Picard got off easy with a dirty look and an attitude, and I believe he knew it. That exchange was a little uncomfortable to watch the first time around, but that's because it was so real.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

It's human, but it's totally unfair and I don't agree with this kind of behaviour. But that's neither here nor there....the interaction was very interesting, and I liked it because of the conflict, even if I did side with Picard on that one.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

It's human, but it's totally unfair and I don't agree with this kind of behaviour. But that's neither here nor there....the interaction was very interesting, and I liked it because of the conflict, even if I did side with Picard on that one.

And my point was that it's "totally unfair" all the way around, so I don't side with either one. Sisko lost the love of his life and his son lost his mother. Picard was used against his will to perform terrible acts that will haunt him for life. To me, there's no "side" to choose in that.

 

[Anwar]

The novelization of "Emissary" makes it clear that Sisko realized what a total jerk he'd been earlier and when he saw Picard again at the end he felt ashamed about it and realized he and Picard were both nothing more than victims of the Borg.