Location of Federation HQ post The Burn

[Deks]

...Presuming the wormhole is open to traffic. It has a track record of sorts there.

Timo Saloniemi

Its probably why Voyager didn't travel to the Bajoran wormhole in the GQ exactly because of that track record.
They knew that wormholes are by definition subject to a variety of anomalous events over time and can degrade... plus they should have been aware of the Dominion as its been a month (maybe two) after the Odyssey was destroyed when Voyager was launched.
Plus, getting to the GQ end of the wormhole would have potentially reduced the trip by a decade... and once they reached it (assuming they did), there was no sure way of ascertaining it would still exist (artificial or not - the wormhole aliens DID close the wormhole on their own in the Pilot - who's to say they wouldn't do so in the next few decades).

Not to mention the fact Voyager would need to evade the Dominion in the process (a known hostile force which employs kamikaze runs).

 

[jackoverfull]

Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised at some point with this... but I'm not going to hold my breadth.

me neither. As much as I’m enjoying this season I think it’s clear that nothing too outlandish will be going on. The writers seem to want to be careful and avoid stepping out of generic SF mainstream tropes.

Well, unless you stop and consider the implications of a several hundred years old being having a romantic relationship with a 14 year old human, but I don’t think they put too much thought into this.

By the way, is it just my impression or the symbiont only carries memories now? In the past it clearly had a distinct personality, which merged with the one of the host,

 

[Deks]

me neither. As much as I’m enjoying this season I think it’s clear that nothing too outlandish will be going on. The writers seem to want to be careful and avoid stepping out of generic SF mainstream tropes.

I'm enjoying this season too (I've also liked the first two), but yes, it seems the writers aren't making any grand effort towards showcasing proper technological development fit for the universe and the (vast) amount of time that has passed (but again, we've only seen 4 episodes thus far).

Well, unless you stop and consider the implications of a several hundred years old being having a romantic relationship with a 14 year old human, but I don’t think they put too much thought into this.

Adira is 16 (by the time she's on Discovery)... though in many real life regions of Earth, 14 is the age of consent. And to be fair, education in the Trek universe (and especially Federation) would likely be such so that all people are fully aware of the consequences of a romantic relationship and are exposed to relevant general education, critical thinking and problem solving (by contrast, I've met plenty of physically mature people whose mentality at times left me wondering if they left puberty to begin with - Trek humans or Federation citizens likely wouldn't have these issues - unless a species has an especially slow maturation time frame of course).

I mean, when you consider the fact that Adira was allowed to become an Inspector on Earth not so long before getting to Discovery (maybe 6 months or up to a year prior), and she would have been 15 at the time... we'd also have to consider the implications of allowing barely mature humans in joining teams like that.

Also, you have to consider the biological facts too. Technically humans do mature during this time frame and become capable of reproduction, but its also possible that by the 24th century, human maturation has been accelerated via technology (and lifespan subsequently increased).
We don't have a full set of data... but I'm not overtly concerned because Adira was already intelligent and mature for her age by the time she was in a relationship with Gray.

Also, Gray didn't seem much older than Adira (I could be wrong)... but technically if you include Tal's previous lives, then sure, he'd be hundreds of years old... but by contrast, Jadzia at times also considered Julian Bashir as a 'child' in DS9's first and second season...
Worf would barely be a teenager by that comparison... and we've seen Jadzia didn't have issues having relations with various people.

By the way, is it just my impression or the symbiont only carries memories now? In the past it clearly had a distinct personality, which merged with the one of the host,

Hm... not sure.
Too early to tell as of yet, but I do think that Gray's personality would have been affected more by the joining because such an influx of information/knowledge would in essence change you to a radical degree.
However, this is a human joining (and to our knowledge the only successful one)... so we'll have to see how it plays out.

Plus we know the joining affects different Trill differently.

 

[fireproof78]

How are they to present proper technological advances?

 

[Deks]

How are they to present proper technological advances?

Well, for example, just extrapolate based on what we have seen in the 23rd and 24th centuries for one thing and take into account the fact that 930 years is a ridiculously large amount of time for a large collection of alien civilizations that cooperate/share resources freely without monetary obstructions that would propel science and technology to a very different level.

That and we also had numerous hypothetical and theoretical papers written a long time ago what space-faring cultures could accomplish (hence why I suggested Dyson Swarms at least... or Dyson Spheres by the 32nd century for a Type II civilization... with the Federation say starting towards becoming Type IV - harnessing the power of the entire universe for example - which would presume they've been able to harness the energy of Milky Way by 32nd century (and because they explored other nearby galaxies, they started harnessing those as well because they were uninhabited, or at least uninhabited sections of those galaxies)... and then... 'The Burn' could have happened as a targeted response because 'someone' or 'something' did not like what they were seeing for example, but in a way that would for example not make UFP (still) reliant on dilithium and M/AM (because that just doesn't make any sense) but have (obviously) developed very different methods of propulsion capable of reaching other galaxies (and starting to construct say Dyson spheres or passive devices capable of harnessing the ambient galactic energy without damaging the surroundings) and The Burn destroyed the UFP's ability to move (and transwarp and regular beaming for example - at least ones capable of huge ranges) - most methods of propulsion were inaccessible to them (sans the Spore Drive on Discovery which lets say they never re-invented by that time frame because of 'reasons' - classified files, or someone considered the possibility and because they knew what Disco went through, stated it was not practical/workable).

Say a civilization on a higher level (aka, very close to being Type IV or actual Type IV) could have initiated the Burn of a targeted response towards UFP because they didn't want 'company' or for whatever reason, considered UFP a threat (because UFP doesn't conquer alien civilizations... it spreads through a different notion and advances exponentially faster), whereas this Type IV civilization may have only cared about its own existence or developed in a part of the universe where no other alien species were present... and then suddenly, encounter UFP... but because this civilization is so... isolated... it developed no sense of trying to share the universe... or certain regions of it with another species... let alone an organisation that incorporates hundreds of thousands of species (or close to it by that time).

That might make for an interesting storytelling that pushes Trek further and incorporates real life 'projections' of highly advanced civilizations that evolve at an exponential pace (and we've seen the Q were interested and possibly worried at the fast development of Humanity... in some cases exceeding their expectations).
It would be fascinating to have Humanity as a 'driving force' behind exponential developments in science and technology and their ability to bring other species together in a collaborative manner to do the same or something very similar.

Though in all honesty, from what we have seen of Trek, it wouldn't surprise me if they could for example find ways to harness stars and galaxies without actually building Dyson Swarms or Spheres for that matter.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the past it clearly had a distinct personality, which merged with the one of the host,

I see every reason to assume this is still the case.

Although it might depend on the host. Some might have more dominant personalities than others, so that could affect how their joined selves turn out.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, for example, just extrapolate based on what we have seen in the 23rd and 24th centuries for one thing and take into account the fact that 930 years is a ridiculously large amount of time for a large collection of alien civilizations that cooperate/share resources freely without monetary obstructions.

Cool.

What does that mean to the story?

 

[Deks]

Cool.

What does that mean to the story?

It would obviously need to change to accommodate for some change in technological progression - but the underlying base premise could be left as is.
Even with fracturing of UFP for example, individual worlds like Earth and Trill would still have retained technologies that existed before then.
Trill could have also looked for solutions in boosting their population numbers in the last century for example so they could have larger amount of hosts for joining with symbiots... reaching varying degree of success for example (but not entirely) and then having to deal with Adira as a human who joined with a Trill symbiont because there were no other Trill in the immediate vicinity and since it appeared the joining was a success (even if it wasn't biologically possible before in the 24th century, that kind of limitation would have been overcome with enough medical research over the past 800 odd years for example), it could still force Trill to face with the reality that joining with non-Trill species is possible... maybe even help breed more symbiots for future merging.

Earth for example after Federation/Starfleet leaving it (to protect it) would probably have its own Dyson Sphere in SOL and protect SOL as a whole system (so SOL in itself would have isolated itself from the rest of the galaxy)... with Wen being from say Alpha Centauri or another star system that used to be a Federation colony and were again in dire need with most of their technology for repair and maintenance capabilities destroyed - and trying to communicate with SOL who may have ignored hails because they don't feel like they owe anyone anything after leaving UFP and might only respond if SF HQ/Federation itself contacted them to let them know its ok to stop being isolationist.

Again, base premise can be left as is, just integrate something to illustrate how much more advanced the era is and accommodate the setting to match that.

SF HQ could therefore end up being in another galaxy for example (as opposed to the Milky Way).
And with Disco having a method of propulsion at their disposal that allows them quick access to practically anywhere in the universe, the crew would still need to find out what/who may have caused the Burn, the why and how to prevent something like that from happening again.

Disco's base premise seems sound, but it seems a bit... too constricted... the Milky Way shouldn't probably be a focal point at this time, but rather it would need to retrace steps from where UFP existed in other galaxies to gather more clues as to what could have caused the Burn.

I'm just spit-balling ideas atm as its very late and actually need to head to bed.

 

[fireproof78]

Why do Dyson Spheres matter? This is a repeated theme yet Trek makes little use of them and their use strikes me as overblown in importance. Moreover I don't see it impacting the story in a meaningful way.

Now, I'll admit my bias and acknowledge that tech means little to me save for impact upon characters. And, unless I'm missing something it feels like this is set dressing, and furthering questions of Starfleet's incompetence if the
Burn still happens.

 

[Deks]

Why do Dyson Spheres matter? This is a repeated theme yet Trek makes little use of them and their use strikes me as overblown in importance. Moreover I don't see it impacting the story in a meaningful way.

Now, I'll admit my bias and acknowledge that tech means little to me save for impact upon characters. And, unless I'm missing something it feels like this is set dressing, and furthering questions of Starfleet's incompetence if the
Burn still happens.

Well, I did say the Burn could be caused by a much more advanced type of civilization with a similar destruction result... but the UFP would need to be larger (extra galactic really) to make for a more 'accurate' setting for the universe and time frame, and we're talking about disabling any/all method of known FTL propulsion known to UFP in that case for the Burn to be effective.

Also, from a real life point of view, if you want to have access to the whole energy output of your home star (which would qualify a species to become a Type II civilization on Kardashev scale), then a Dyson Swarm or a Sphere are the only known real life methods by which we can accomplish that (as I said, Trek may have come up with a way to do the same without having to construct megastructures like that by 32nd century).

Plus, having a full blown Dyson Sphere in SOL actually conceals you quite well from outside intruders... and you gain massive internal volume at the same time (and there would be 0 waste energy seeing how already in real life we can capture any waste energy and put it back into ciculation - Trek technology demonstrated it can do this as well with far greater ease).

It also sets you on a path to become a Type III civilization (to harness the energy of the whole galaxy).

By having access to the whole power output of a star, you end up with access to massive energy which opens up ridiculous opportunities for scientific and technological research/advancement.
Existing sources of energy (even fusion, and M/AM from Trek) will probably only take you so far.

By then moving onto becoming Type III, your perspective on what is possible enhances further... you 'scale up' your thinking of sorts and so do your technical and scientific capabilities.

Type IV civilization would technically have harnessed all galaxies in a local cluster, or majority of those in the universe... whereas Type V would be a civilization with the power of the whole universe... and Type VI would be able to harness energy of multiple universes (the Q are very similar in this regard or essentially this level because they exist outside space-time as we know it and are apparently able to move/exist through multiple universes and time as well).

Plus, Trek humans (and UFP at large) were hinted that they were heading into this direction in TNG.

 

[eschaton]

While I do agree it's somewhat frustrating that there's been so little seeming advancement since the 32nd century, on the other hand...Trek has always been awful at this.

I mean, seriously. If you cut out the godlike energy beings (and in particular ignore TOS) nearly every alien race is shown to be at the same or lower technological level as the Federation. Which makes no sense, since we know that plenty of races have been spacefaring for thousands of years.

Thus, the future shouldn't really be all that more technologically advanced, because it's not like the Vulcans (who had centuries more of experience with warp) had all this cool god-tech they shared with humanity.

Edit: At the same time, however, one advantage of the far-future setting is it can examine SF concepts (like transhumanism) which were just never canonically part of Trek before. And so far the series has eschewed that.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, I did say the Burn could be caused by a much more advanced type of civilization with a similar destruction result... but the UFP would need to be larger (extra galactic really) to make for a more 'accurate' setting for the universe and time frame, and we're talking about disabling any/all method of known FTL propulsion known to UFP in that case for the Burn to be effective.

Also, from a real life point of view, if you want to have access to the whole energy output of your home star (which would qualify a species to become a Type II civilization on Kardashev scale), then a Dyson Swarm or a Sphere are the only known real life methods by which we can accomplish that (as I said, Trek may have come up with a way to do the same without having to construct megastructures like that by 32nd century).

Plus, having a full blown Dyson Sphere in SOL actually conceals you quite well from outside intruders... and you gain massive internal volume at the same time (and there would be 0 waste energy seeing how already in real life we can capture any waste energy and put it back into ciculation - Trek technology demonstrated it can do this as well with far greater ease).

It also sets you on a path to become a Type III civilization (to harness the energy of the whole galaxy).

By having access to the whole power output of a star, you end up with access to massive energy which opens up ridiculous opportunities for scientific and technological research/advancement.
Existing sources of energy (even fusion, and M/AM from Trek) will probably only take you so far.

By then moving onto becoming Type III, your perspective on what is possible enhances further... you 'scale up' your thinking of sorts and so do your technical and scientific capabilities.

Type IV civilization would technically have harnessed all galaxies in a local cluster, or majority of those in the universe... whereas Type V would be a civilization with the power of the whole universe... and Type VI would be able to harness energy of multiple universes (the Q are very similar in this regard or essentially this level because they exist outside space-time as we know it and are apparently able to move/exist through multiple universes and time as well).

Plus, Trek humans (and UFP at large) were hinted that they were heading into this direction in TNG.

I guess I'm missing the why.

I guess it is beyond me.

While I do agree it's somewhat frustrating that there's been so little seeming advancement since the 32nd century, on the other hand...Trek has always been awful at this.

Here's my view, simplistic as it might be. Star Trek writers are gearing to hit the biggest possible audience, which means that pushing development is always going to take a back burner in comparison to what they feel the audience will reasonably understand. Now, I also think Trek underestimates its audience, but how much of that audience is going to really worry about how advance things are?

 

[XCV330]

We'd better get a specific location named here.

Page 1247.
Benny has been writing new stuff.

 

[jackoverfull]

Trill could have also looked for solutions in boosting their population numbers in the last century for example so they could have larger amount of hosts for joining with symbiots.

Maybe they did and they failed. Keep in mind that the federation didn’t like cloning, transporter duplication and genetic manipulation.

By having access to the whole power output of a star, you end up with access to massive energy which opens up ridiculous opportunities for scientific and technological research/advancement.

On the other hand, are we so sure that by building a few matter/antimatter reactors they don’t end up with more energy than they need? After all, why spend decades building a massive structure when you can get the same results within days building ten reactors?

Plus, Trek humans (and UFP at large) were hinted that they were heading into this direction in TNG.

And on lower decks!

Here's my view, simplistic as it might be. Star Trek writers are gearing to hit the biggest possible audience, which means that pushing development is always going to take a back burner in comparison to what they feel the audience will reasonably understand.

Exactly. And this is why we won’t see anything outlandish such as a Dyson sphere (or swarm, something even people more into SF literature don’t even meet) anytime soon.

 

[Deks]

Maybe they did and they failed. Keep in mind that the federation didn’t like cloning, transporter duplication and genetic manipulation.

Yes, but shortly after the Burn, the Federation left local neighbourhood... so Trill would no longer be bound those rules.
Albeit, while cloning and genetic manipulation were banned as of 24th century, we don't know whether these wouldn't have changed over the following 810 years.

As for transporter duplication... no specific rule against it... it was an accident when it happened in the 24th century with Riker after all in the sense that it was uninticipated due to how a transporter beam was configured and how it interacted with the planetary atmosphere.

On the other hand, are we so sure that by building a few matter/antimatter reactors they don’t end up with more energy than they need? After all, why spend decades building a massive structure when you can get the same results within days building ten reactors?

Technically, they would have enough energy via fusion and M/AM, but, the point here is that you've created passive means of harnessing huge amounts of free energy which gives you options in regards to conducting scientific experiments on a scale never conducted before... from a power source that will radiate energy for incredible amounts of time.
Its actually more efficient, and opens up options in how you apply various technologies.

Also, we have 0 indications that building x amount of reactors would give you the same power output as a star.. and, Dilithium shortages, remember?
Or at least, Stamets already mentioned in the 23rd century to Reno what kind of damage is being done with dilithium mining and that spores are renewable.

And on lower decks!

Was it?
Huh... I didn't notice that tidbit.

Exactly. And this is why we won’t see anything outlandish such as a Dyson sphere (or swarm, something even people more into SF literature don’t even meet) anytime soon.

The writers don't usually go into this direction due to not knowing about Dyson Swarms/Spheres, or finding it 'impossible' to build.
Plus, a lot of stories in SD constructed in a way which promote internal struggle of humanity reaching for the stars as opposed to achieving greater technological heights and see how to use them to benefit everyone at large - because they usually seem to project same state of affairs we have on Earth, far into the future and into space no less.

 

[jackoverfull]

Yes, but shortly after the Burn, the Federation left local neighbourhood... so Trill would no longer be bound those rules.

but might still have kept a similar set of laws, just like a lot of European laws can track their genesis to Roman legislature, over a thousands years after the fall of the empire!

Especially so if at that point the idea that cloning was wrong had been ingrained as morally unacceptable for centuries...remember Riker and Pulaski casually killing their clones just because having someone else with the same DNA diminished them?

As for transporter duplication... no specific rule against it... it was an accident when it happened in the 24th century with Riker after all in the sense that it was uninticipated due to how a transporter beam was configured and how it interacted with the planetary atmosphere.

I think that on DS9 it was mentioned that all methods of duplicating a sentient being were forbidden.

Technically, they would have enough energy via fusion and M/AM, but, the point here is that you've created passive means of harnessing huge amounts of free energy which gives you options in regards to conducting scientific experiments on a scale never conducted before... from a power source that will radiate energy for incredible amounts of time.
Its actually more efficient, and opens up options in how you apply various technologies.

It might be more efficient, but perhaps M/AM reactors are just good enough and the federation just doesn’t consider worth the trouble of building such a massive structure when they don’t need it.

Also, we have 0 indications that building x amount of reactors would give you the same power output as a star..

Nor we have the opposite indications.

Dilithium shortages, remember?
Or at least, Stamets already mentioned in the 23rd century to Reno what kind of damage is being done with dilithium mining and that spores are renewable.

The casually mentioned dilithium shortage thing was a bit odd, especially as by the early 24th century already they had plenty, as they could just recristalyze it.

Was it?
Huh... I didn't notice that tidbit.

There is a crewman ascending to a higher form of existence at a certain point...and discovering that the universe is a giant koala or something like that!

The writers don't usually go into this direction due to not knowing about Dyson Swarms/Spheres

Oh, Dyson spheres are a concept that anyone that has read some SF knows well, I’m sure the writers do too, but they’re afraid that the general audience won’t.

Dyson swarms...well, I’ve read my fair share of classics and am familiar with the concept but couldn’t cite a particular work with them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Oh, Dyson spheres are a concept that anyone that has read some SF knows well, I’m sure the writers do too, but they’re afraid that the general audience won’t.

Dyson swarms...well, I’ve read my fair share of classics and am familiar with the concept but couldn’t cite a particular work with them.

Other than being nice eye candy, how does either impact the story being told?

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly. And this is why we won’t see anything outlandish such as a Dyson sphere (or swarm, something even people more into SF literature don’t even meet) anytime soon.

And that brings me back to my larger question-what impact does this have on the overall narrative being told? How does this impact our characters? What information does this convey to the audience?

Now, I am not as familiar with Dyson spheres, and swarms and the different types of civilizations and appreciated the information given here so I could make sense of it. But, after reading more about it there is still a question of "Why?" Star Trek's civilizations have already demonstrated abilities to draw power in a variety of different ways so these large, mega structures, are completely unnecessary to demonstrate advancement in the future.

Other than being nice eye candy, how does either impact the story being told?

Ultimately, this is the question.

 

[Timo]

Telling a story about a Dyson sphere might need to involve the one from "Relics", considering how it had such novelty value there despite Starfleet having been to so many places already. But the very fact that the one sphere is so unique might cater for it existing for a reason. Obviously, giving one was outside the scope of "Relics", but modern Trek revels in not just name-dropping old stuff, but in expanding upon that, too.

It might be just as fun as the revelation about Boreth being home to time crystals, or the Briar Patch being a hideout for Arik Soong. That is, harmless fun for most, perhaps suitably awe-inspiring visually for some, and chuckleworthy for the initiated. I mean, one can hardly do worse visually than "Relics" did...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jackoverfull]

Other than being nice eye candy, how does either impact the story being told?

Well, it shows how advanced the 31th century is from Discovery’s 23th, which is something that is currently lacking a lot.

The only thing that we’ve seen so far that wasn’t already common by the late 24th century is the personal transporter and even that was introduced, as a prototype in Nemesis!

Telling a story about a Dyson sphere might need to involve the one from "Relics",

I’ve been wanting to go back there for so long...there you have it: a huge mystery, something no other civilization has ever done and whose purpose is totally unknown...and they totally forgot about it,