Location of Federation HQ post The Burn

[Deks]

Several options:
New Talax (the asteroid field near the edge of the Delta and Alpha Quadrants),
Bajor,
The planet in the Delta Quadrant with the 37's descendants (or any other friendly species Voyager encountered - heck, by the 32nd century, the entire DQ could have mellowed to the Federation).
Gamma Quadrant (I'm liking the idea the Founders may have joined the Federation at some point, or at least formed an alliance)
Qo'nos sounds like a viable candidate too.

The Romulans may have joined the Federation at some point too (or at least formed an alliance)... but given how aggressive and powerful the Tal'Shiar was in Star Trek Picard... it doesn't strike me as a particularly viable option (but it IS about 800 years after, so anything could have happened) - though, the Klingons could also be considered 'vicious' compared to the Romulans, and we know they were part of the Federation by the 26th century and participated in combat against the Sphere Builders (but, would that future still occur what with the NX-01 destroying the Delphic Expanse? Possibly... the Sphere builders may have created a new Delphic expanse elsewhere in Milky Way).

Albeit, SF headquarters could end up being on a giant starbase/ship which is capable of traversing massive distances and didn't use dilithium or antimatter.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the Yorktown starbase in the Prime Universe in some fashion?
Maybe retrofitted into Starfleet Headquarters and capable of jumping through space or having an alternate method of FTL?

Its certainly huge enough.

Just please, I don't want to see that Terran City ship monstrosity (the Charon).
The design is nothing like the Federation might construct... and if it did, it would be FAR prettier.

 

[Blooded]

Maybe I’m remembering it wrong, but didn’t the Earth Captain say that Starfleet and the Federation left Earth, to protect it? They weren’t sure if the Burn had been a targeted attack on them, so they left Earth to avoid any further damage/attacks to the planet. In that case, going to a Vulcan, or any other established world, would seem to defeat the entire purpose of them leaving Earth in the first place?

I’d assume they’ve gone to an area of space that, for whatever reason, is not likely to be visited by others. Maybe it’s an unsafe area, etc.? Could be a Badlands situation, essentially.

I’ve seen some suggestions of Delta/Gamma Quadrant, but that seems unlikely. The Feds had travel issues, just like everyone else - if they had the means to travel so far from Earth, so quickly, then it strikes me that they likely weren’t has damaged by the Burn as they were meant to be. So, I’d assume they’re still nearby.

I’m also wondering about those two Federation ships that were on sensors, in That Hope is You (Part 1). Are we thinking they were still operating on behalf of the Federation, which would suggest the Fed is still close by, or do we think they were two ships cut adrift themselves, who are just going with the flow, now?

 

[Timo]

Maybe I’m remembering it wrong, but didn’t the Earth Captain say that Starfleet and the Federation left Earth, to protect it? They weren’t sure if the Burn had been a targeted attack on them, so they left Earth to avoid any further damage/attacks to the planet. In that case, going to a Vulcan, or any other established world, would seem to defeat the entire purpose of them leaving Earth in the first place?

Might be more like they were kicked out because they were trouble magnets - but not every planet would be that harsh on them, and Starfleet itself would refuse to undersign the trouble magnet thing.

I’m also wondering about those two Federation ships that were on sensors, in That Hope is You (Part 1). Are we thinking they were still operating on behalf of the Federation, which would suggest the Fed is still close by, or do we think they were two ships cut adrift themselves, who are just going with the flow, now?

Sahil couldn't make heads or tails of the identities of those ships, curiously enough. He only had trace numbers for them, not NCCs or other sort of positive ID; he couldn't communicate with them. Operating on behalf of the Federation might not mean much if such ships refuse to make contact, or attempts at contact, with Federation assets or those hoping to be Federation assets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

I didn't get the impression that Earth kicked the Federation and Starfleet.

It seems more like when the Burn happened, a mutual decision was made which meant Federation/Starfleet would have left Earth to protect it, but then in the interim (or at the point of departure), Earth separated from the Federation (maybe as part of a plant in helping to protect it and they might rejoin after the cause of the Burn was discovered and Earth was advised to play the 'long waiting game' and protect itself).

As for the Federation HQ being in the DQ or elsewhere (perhaps another Galaxy even - though its probable they are still in the Milky Way)... that doesn't strike me as an impossibility.

Its 930 years AFTER the 23rd century, and there's no reason to think Warp didn't become far more powerful (or at least, the Warp drive as Federation ships use it), or they may have used another method of reaching their destination (Quantum Slipstream Version 2 which allowed Voyager to cross 10 000 Ly's in 1 minute for example from 'Timeless')... its possible the Federation (or what's left of it) carefully regulated technology for synthesizing Benamite crystals allowing only Starfleet ships to use it.

Earth certainly had its own stockpile of Dilithium after the Burn... I'd imagine only Dilithium which was actively used at the time would have destroyed any ships/stations with active Warp cores... but why would stations use Warp cores? Enhanced fusion reactors were used to power DS9 in the 24th century... so I don't see why starbases, etc. would be using antimatter and dilithium when fusion (or something better) may have been invented and used as a potent power source.

Don't you wish the Federation was using a Dyson Swarm?

Oooh...

The Dyson Sphere remains as a possible option for Starfleet HQ (and they could have found a solution to a fluctuating star and stabilized it in the late 24th or early 25th century).

That, or, Starleet may have constructed its own Dyson Sphere somewhere in Milky Way.

 

[Timo]

I didn't get the impression that Earth kicked the Federation and Starfleet.

Well, Ndoye seemed to emphasize that Earth didn't need Starfleet or the Federation for anything, in pretty hostile tones of voice. I doubt Starfleet would ever decide that leaving=protecting; if they left San Francisco on their own account, they'd linger and see if anybody came. And if somebody did, they'd mount a brave and foolish defense; if nobody did, they'd see no reason to leave.

It seems more likely that Earth made it unilaterally clear Starfleet was no longer welcome, attacks or no attacks. And odds are that there would not be attacks at first, because everybody would be too busy recovering from the Burn, so assumptions on both sides would be vindicated: Earth would be convinced giving Starfleet the boot was the right thing to do and they could go it alone, and Starfleet could pretend that Earth was safe after all, and could leave in peace.

As for the Federation HQ being in the DQ or elsewhere (perhaps another Galaxy even - though its probable they are still in the Milky Way)... that doesn't strike me as an impossibility.

The organization could relocate wherever it wished. But more probably it would disband: it has no raison d'etre unless it protects its member worlds. If it has not disbanded, odds are that it lingers, in corners of its former turf that are not hostile to it. And indeed Sahil sees such lingering on his displays. Not too far away, then. That is, not across vast spore jumps, but across distances one can cover by conventional warp if one can afford the dilithium. And within a distance allowing for a triumphant return eventually.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Well, Ndoye seemed to emphasize that Earth didn't need Starfleet or the Federation for anything, in pretty hostile tones of voice. I doubt Starfleet would ever decide that leaving=protecting; if they left San Francisco on their own account, they'd linger and see if anybody came. And if somebody did, they'd mount a brave and foolish defense; if nobody did, they'd see no reason to leave.

It seems more likely that Earth made it unilaterally clear Starfleet was no longer welcome, attacks or no attacks. And odds are that there would not be attacks at first, because everybody would be too busy recovering from the Burn, so assumptions on both sides would be vindicated: Earth would be convinced giving Starfleet the boot was the right thing to do and they could go it alone, and Starfleet could pretend that Earth was safe after all, and could leave in peace.

But Ndoye did mention the Federation and Starfleet left Earth over 100 years for the very reason that Earth could be a target.
While she did re-itterate that Earth could take care of itself and didn't need to be a member, that didn't strike me as the only reason - and besides, and space faring FTL capable culture in Trek would likely achieve self-sufficient status before joining the Federation anyway... being part of the Federation wasn't just about sharing resources, technology and knowledge freely.. it was participation in something greater.
The UFP may have STARTED originally with 4 founding members (Earth, Tellar, Vulcan and Andoria) sharing resources for mutual protection, etc... but it outgrew that by the 23rd century.

So, on the flip side is IS possible that UFP concocted a plan that Earth officially leaves UFP to avoid it being a target and preserve it for the future when the cause of the Burn was discovered and dealt with (and Earth could be in on this plan easily enough).

The organization could relocate wherever it wished. But more probably it would disband: it has no raison d'etre unless it protects its member worlds. If it has not disbanded, odds are that it lingers, in corners of its former turf that are not hostile to it. And indeed Sahil sees such lingering on his displays. Not too far away, then. That is, not across vast spore jumps, but across distances one can cover by conventional warp if one can afford the dilithium. And within a distance allowing for a triumphant return eventually.

Timo Saloniemi

Its also possible that UFP HQ is hiding intentionally and protecting its member planets by pretending its been dissolved entirely (or it could have indeed just disbanded)... and its also possible they are rebuilding forces in secret while simultaneously trying to find out what cause the Burn - no sense in risking a potential second attack with limited resources and trying to keep a new fleet of ships concealed (though, the same could be avoided by keeping their Warp cores powered down or just using a different means of power generation without dilithium).

 

[Nerys Myk]

But Ndoye did mention the Federation and Starfleet left Earth over 100 years for the very reason that Earth could be a target.

I got the impression the UFP and Starfleet were were asked to leave by EarthGov. Not unlike how Felix Unger was asked to leave by his wife.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It seems more like when the Burn happened, a mutual decision was made which meant Federation/Starfleet would have left Earth to protect it, but then in the interim (or at the point of departure), Earth separated from the Federation (maybe as part of a plant in helping to protect it and they might rejoin after the cause of the Burn was discovered and Earth was advised to play the 'long waiting game' and protect itself).

It's an allegory for Brexit.

 

[Deks]

I got the impression the UFP and Starfleet were were asked to leave by EarthGov. Not unlike how Felix Unger was asked to leave by his wife.

Question.
Would there be an Earth government by that time at all?
I mean, Earth was a founding member of the Federation and it was part of it for nearly 1000 years...

It seems more likely (from in-universe point of view) that the Federation created the plan to move its HQ from Earth to protect it and Earth was in on the plan... so it was a mutual decision/plan and Earth is just waiting for Federation to come back (but admittedly, with over 100 years of being on its own and fully self-sufficient... would Earth want to come back to the Federation?).

Oh well, maybe this incident with Titan/Wen reminded Earth the importance of working together (self-sufficiency or not) and keeping communication lines open.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Perhaps it’s hidden in the Expanse.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Would there be an Earth government by that time at all?
I mean, Earth was a founding member of the Federation and it was part of it for nearly 1000 years...

Yes, but United Earth never stopped being its own entity. Even after the formation of the Federation, Earth was a member world, like any other.

Take Canada, for example. Ottawa is the capital of Canada, yet it is still a normal Canadian city - it just happens to be where Parliament Hill is located. Same story here. Earth just happens to be the location of Starfleet Command, and most Federation government buildings, yet it is still a normal member world. It sends representatives to the Federation Council just like all the other members do. And it handles its own local affairs on its own, separate from the Federation at large - again, just like any other member world would do.

 

[Deks]

Yes, but United Earth never stopped being its own entity. Even after the formation of the Federation, Earth was a member world, like any other.

Take Canada, for example. Ottawa is the capital of Canada, yet it is still a normal Canadian city - it just happens to be where Parliament Hill is located. Same story here. Earth just happens to be the location of Starfleet Command, and most Federation government buildings, yet it is still a normal member world. It sends representatives to the Federation Council just like all the other members do. And it handles its own local affairs on its own, separate from the Federation at large - again, just like any other member world would do.

I know that each planetary civilization retains its own autonomy within the Federation... but to go for 1000 years for that premise to remain as is?
I find it a bit unlikely.

What could have also happened is that UEDF was (re)created when the burn occurred and Federation HQ left.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I know that each planetary civilization retains its own autonomy within the Federation... but to go for 1000 years for that premise to remain as is?
I find it a bit unlikely.

Perhaps.

But why mess with what clearly works?

What could have also happened is that UEDF was (re)created when the burn occurred and Federation HQ left.

I realize I have no proof of this but I don't think Earth had a UEDF before it bolted from the Federation.

The Earth Starfleet, as shown in ENT, was their primary means of exploration and defense before the Federation existed. So when the Federation was formed, and the Federation Starfleet (which is not the same organization as Earth Starfleet) was created, I find it likely that Earth Starfleet remained as the planet's local forces.

That said, in DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost arc, we were supposed to see a scene where the Federation President (Jaresh-Inyo) "federalizes" local Earth forces to deal with the crisis, but it got cut for time.

FWIW.

 

[Yistaan]

Qo'noS. If you thought the Discovery Klingon look was odd that's nothing compared to what 32nd century Klingons look like.

Or maybe there is no capital planet. Maybe Fed HQ is on a starship. Works for the First Order in Star Wars. Fed HQ is Enterprise NCC-1701-Z.

 

[Phily B]

Perhaps.

But why mess with what clearly works?



I realize I have no proof of this but I don't think Earth had a UEDF before it bolted from the Federation.

The Earth Starfleet, as shown in ENT, was their primary means of exploration and defense before the Federation existed. So when the Federation was formed, and the Federation Starfleet (which is not the same organization as Earth Starfleet) was created, I find it likely that Earth Starfleet remained as the planet's local forces.

That said, in DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost arc, we were supposed to see a scene where the Federation President (Jaresh-Inyo) "federalizes" local Earth forces to deal with the crisis, but it got cut for time.

FWIW.

Maybe the "Mars Defense Perimeter" or whatever that comically got one shot by The Borg was part of UE's defensive set up.

Though in reality, I imagine that any UE Defense wasn't anything but shield generators and general policing, provided mostly by Starfleet. Military wise, I doubt they had anything that wasn't just hand me downs from Starfleet.

 

[Deks]

Perhaps.

But why mess with what clearly works?

I wouldn't call it 'messing with what works'... more along the lines of 'evolving' things that do work... but more to the point that no governing system could/would stay the same in 1000 years.
Even the Federation introduced changes into how its run from 23rd to 24th century - it probably had to what with so many species wanting to join.

I realize I have no proof of this but I don't think Earth had a UEDF before it bolted from the Federation.

The Earth Starfleet, as shown in ENT, was their primary means of exploration and defense before the Federation existed. So when the Federation was formed, and the Federation Starfleet (which is not the same organization as Earth Starfleet) was created, I find it likely that Earth Starfleet remained as the planet's local forces.

That said, in DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost arc, we were supposed to see a scene where the Federation President (Jaresh-Inyo) "federalizes" local Earth forces to deal with the crisis, but it got cut for time.

FWIW.

Yup, I don't recall Earth having UEDF before... it was a 'united Earth' though wasn't it?
I distinctly remember something about it back from Enterprise days (mid 22nd century).

There was Earth Starfleet of course, but as you know, when the Federation formed, Starfleet evolved way beyond Earth... it became a defensive and exploratory arm for the entire Federation (probably this was a mutual agreement between the founding members because it was Earth and Humanity that united species that could find a mostly 'tense ground' - its probably also why Starfleet HQ as it existed in the 22nd century evolved to encompass the Federation) and we know from canon information that when an alien species joins the Federation, its space assets/fleets become absorbed into Starfleet (they essentially become Starfleet).

So, its likely UEDF was created at the point of Federation departure from Earth.
I still think there's a good chance the Federation concocted this whole plan to protect Earth from becoming a target (which was confirmed from the dialogue)... and that Earth may have been in on that plan and is playing the long waiting game (it may also explain why its still a paradise and has its own stockpiles of UNUSED dilithium).

Well, Earth had to rebuild itself to become self-sufficient (obviously), but I don't think there would be much to do on that front because Earth (and probably any Federation alien member world) already was fully self-sufficient before joining the Federation... so the Burn and the Federation leaving necessitated a recovery of sorts).

 

[fireproof78]

Perhaps.

But why mess with what clearly works?

Indeed, yes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Would there be an Earth government by that time at all?
I mean, Earth was a founding member of the Federation and it was part of it for nearly 1000 years...

Why wouldn't there be? City, regional and provincial governments have existed within countries for millennia, why would that ever change?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There was Earth Starfleet of course, but as you know, when the Federation formed, Starfleet evolved way beyond Earth... it became a defensive and exploratory arm for the entire Federation

They are still different organizations. They just happen to both have the word 'Starfleet' in the name.

And there's another fundamental difference: Earth Starfleet is not military*, but the Federation Starfleet is.

*yes, this was confirmed in dialogue. Remember when the NX-01 is about ready to head into the Expanse? Admiral Forrest and Captain Archer are doing an inspection tour and Forrest asks if Archer has a problem with the military (i.e. the MACOS) on board. Archer replies that he has no problem with non-Starfleet personnel.

 

[Yistaan]

They are still different organizations. They just happen to both have the word 'Starfleet' in the name.

And there's another fundamental difference: Earth Starfleet is not military*, but the Federation Starfleet is.

*yes, this was confirmed in dialogue. Remember when the NX-01 is about ready to head into the Expanse? Admiral Forrest and Captain Archer are doing an inspection tour and Forrest asks if Archer has a problem with the military (i.e. the MACOS) on board. Archer replies that he has no problem with non-Starfleet personnel.

I didn't know that the military was different from Earth Starfleet in dialogue in Enterprise. Odd. Earth Starfleet is itself an armed force and presumably fought in the Romulan War, so why wouldn't it be classified as military?